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disemjg
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 474
Location: Washington, DC
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 Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:33 am Post subject: |
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I just obtained three old Zeiss lenses in barrel, and would like to see if anyone has an opinion on them. All are in heavy brass mounts, enameled black. The first is an 18cm Tessar, which judging from the serial number (122XXX) dates from around 1909. I have of course heard of this lens, and it has very good performance judging from my first negatives. The other two lenses (which I have not used yet) are a model that I have not heard of before; both are marked “series Ic”. Their focal lengths are 21 and 25cm, and both are f4.5. Their serial numbers (370XXX and 355XXX respectively) suggest a date of around 1919. From my disassembly of them I have found that they have four elements in four groups. Are these latter two lenses well known, and what are their properties?
There is a photo of one of these Ic lenses mounted on an RB home portrait in my copy of GRAPHIC/GRAFLEX PHOTOGRAPHY, 11th edition. It is on page 209.
One last question; all three of these lenses have a cryptic marking on the barrel. The 18 is marked BVI2 (the marking is actually on the aperture lever), the 21 is marked VII, and the 25 is marked X2. The Arabic numbers are engraved as decenders, placed slightly below the line of the Roman numerals. Does anyone know what these markings mean? Do they indicate the intended format the lenses are for?
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Les
Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:52 am Post subject: |
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the Tessar came in two forms, the Ic which has a speed of 4.5, typically used with Speed Graphic, Graflexes and the like. and the IIb which has a speed of 6.3 which was marketed to "Hand cameras" , large folders typically.
Any Tessar will have two elements in the front separated by an air space. The front element will be positive (magnifying) and the second element will be negative. Combined the image is slightly negative and will not focus to a point.
The rear half is a cemented doublet and makes a nice hand magnifiying glass.
I don't recognize the BVI2 or the X2, Zeiss made a protar lens called a Series VII. It was a complete lens that mounted in the back of the aperture. When two of these are combined the lens was called a VIIa. Protars VII s could be mixed and matched. You could by say an 8 3/4" and an 11 3/16" (Bauch & Lomb made them here in the states in inches, Zeiss was in centimenter). Combined you had a 5 5/8" lens that would cover 5x7. So you had a nice slightly wide angle, moderate normal and very good portrait focal lenght all in one lens. Add one more cell and you you'll get 6 focal lenghts!
The make up of this lens sounds more like what you describe-- 4 elements in 4 groups. These should be semetrical with the front and rear most elements being positive and the inner elements being negative. Both the front and back of each lens will have a stated focal lenght on it, and it should NOT be engraved with "Ic".
This is the part that confuses me---lens description and some engraving of a Protar VII and engraving of a Tessar. any chance of a photo or two?
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disemjg
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 474
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the feedback.
I do not think the 21 and 25 cm lenses are convertables. Also, they mount in front of the lens board, and in fact do not protrude behind it at all. They screw into heavy flanges which are mounted on the lensboards. Let me have your email address and I will send some pictures. Or, if you have the Graphic book I referenced, you can see the lens there.
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Dan Fromm
Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2144
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:08 am Post subject: |
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On 2003-06-22 18:33, disemjg wrote:
I just obtained three old Zeiss lenses in barrel, and would like to see if anyone has an opinion on them. All are in heavy brass mounts, enameled black. The first is an 18cm Tessar, which judging from the serial number (122XXX) dates from around 1909. I have of course heard of this lens, and it has very good performance judging from my first negatives. The other two lenses (which I have not used yet) are a model that I have not heard of before; both are marked ?series Ic?. Their focal lengths are 21 and 25cm, and both are f4.5. Their serial numbers (370XXX and 355XXX respectively) suggest a date of around 1919. From my disassembly of them I have found that they have four elements in four groups. Are these latter two lenses well known, and what are their properties?
There is a photo of one of these Ic lenses mounted on an RB home portrait in my copy of GRAPHIC/GRAFLEX PHOTOGRAPHY, 11th edition. It is on page 209.
One last question; all three of these lenses have a cryptic marking on the barrel. The 18 is marked BVI2 (the marking is actually on the aperture lever), the 21 is marked VII, and the 25 is marked X2. The Arabic numbers are engraved as decenders, placed slightly below the line of the Roman numerals. Does anyone know what these markings mean? Do they indicate the intended format the lenses are for?
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Here's what the Lens Colletor's Vade Mecum says about the f/4.5 Tessar Ic:
"Tessar Series 1c (1906) f4.5 1.5-20in. Here use 6in for 1/4plate. (Layout Zei 021)
There is a hint that the success of the Tessar came as a slight surprise and that the response took a little
time in preparing a faster version. Remember that Zeiss introduced the f4.5 Anastigmat, Planar and Unar in
succession over some 10 years and may have wanted more continuity at this aperture! The f4.5 Tessar was to
be a product which commercially put all of them in the shade. Compared with the f6.3 it was faster and more
successful, though connoisseurs say it just is not quite such a charismatic item! But it did replace both the
f4.5 Unar and the Planar. Hence the numbering as Series 1c.
The designer here was E.Wandersleb. (D.R.P. 142,294).The drawing (Layout Zei.021) shows two flat surfaces.
In our experience this is unusual. The rear of glass 1 is more usually concave, as is the inside of the rear pair.
But the latter was flat in an early Series 1c f3.5 which was dismantled. Thus Zei022 may be still another
variant. The great success of this product means it is one of the easy ones to find and it is still well worth
using for black+white work. There are coated examples which might be better for colour. It is normally quite
free from flare, but inevitably this tends to affect colour materials more than b+w where it is easy to correct for
changes in contrast.
In 1914, it was made as 3.0, 3.5, 4.75, 5.25, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, 8.25, 10, 12, 14, 16, 20in and 16in was suggested
for 10x8, and 6in for 5x4in. There may be other sizes, as A. Adams mentions using an 8.5in Tessar in the
1920's. (Autobiography, p60). In view of the later use of interchangable front components, it seems the E.
Wanderslab envisaged this as early as 1908-9- but production does not seem to have ocurred.
The Tessar quickly became the prestige lens on the bulk of small cameras sold to the general public. This
was typically the f4.5 though the f6.3 was also a success. It must have had a major impact on camera design
as a result. This is due to the designers in each company having to accommodate the same shutter/lenspackage and the same rear focus in all the models of the same format. And thence on lens designers whose
lenses ******* as alternate fitments now had to conform at least approximately to that of the Zeiss Tessar.
Also as the cameras converged, so the identity was lessened, and the possibility of a merger such as
occurred to form Zeiss Ikon was eased. But note that this only involved some 4 makers, and the design
convergence will have affected firms (such as Ensign in the UK) who were definitely independant.
An interesting focal length is the 55mm, found on stereo cameras for 45x107mm format, eg at No471,35x (2x).
Another point is that some f4.5/150mm Tessar lenses are in Compound or Compur shutters with oversize rear
mounting threads of 44x0.9mm, probably an A size, possibly to allow a bigger rear cell for more even
illumination. This is something to note in mounting them as the 44mm ring is now hard to find if missing.
An interesting example was marked "Flieger Truppe" at No29587x, possibly a WW1 air lens.
During 1999, a group of some 5 Tessars f6.3 and f4.5 were tried out on B+W film 6x9cm using a 1960's
coated lens for comparison. There was amazingly little difference between them in contrast for ordinary views
outside when shooting at f11 and 1/100sec, and using a lens hood also seemed to be unnecessary. But as
the camera was swung to look towards the sun, the difference began to show up, one conclusion being that
anything which kept the sunlight off the actual glass was almost equally efffective: so site the camera in
shade, even of a telephone pole or hold up a hand, book or newspaper to shade the actual lens. Zeiss seem to
have achieved a premium product here, and this may depend partly on the sharpness of the lens image and
partly on the careful blacking of the edges and related parts. There are also mentions in older books of the
unusual "black" polish Zeiss were able to obtain on the glasses- due to a very perfect surface finish and
perhaps an insistence on harder grades of glass. One tentative suggestion is that the choice of polishing
compound contributed something to not just the smoothness but to the finished surface layer, which could be
modified in refractive index and begin to approach a anti-reflection layer. This will affect (reduce) the reflexions
even if not of optimal thickness."
Sorry for the crazy indents, that's what happens when I import text from .pdf files. No mention of convertibility.
Cheers,
Dan |
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Les
Joined: 09 May 2001
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Location: Detroit, MI
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disemjg
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 474
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:39 am Post subject: |
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So if I read this history correctly, the "Series Ic" lenses I have are really Tessars under another name. And, from my original post, my 18cm lens is marked Tessar, and based on the serial number probably predates the two "Series Ic" lenses by about ten years. Not that it is conclusive, but the 18 is very compact and looks completely different from the other two lenses. Chalk it up to marketing ideas, I guess.
Any ideas about the "cryptic markings" on the barrels? |
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Les
Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 2:26 am Post subject: |
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disemjg has sent me the top image, which is his 25cm Tessar. The second image is of my considerably smaller f7.7 Protar which is marked IV (sub1)
His other lenses seem to fit the pattern that the roman numeral increase with barrel diameter.
the 180 is a size VI (the B was there to throw us off)
and the 210mm is a size VII.
I've cross posted this to the F32 Largeformat listserve where other dinosaurs congregate, maybe we can stir some memories.
Oh yes, the photo.......
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disemjg
Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 474
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| AHA! So the Roman numerals denote the physical size of the barrel. Since it looks so drastically different, I will try to post a photo of my 18. |
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Dan Fromm
Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2144
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:22 am Post subject: |
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On 2003-06-24 19:26, Les wrote:
disemjg has sent me the top image, which is his 25cm Tessar. The second image is of my considerably smaller f7.7 Protar which is marked IV (sub1)
His other lenses seem to fit the pattern that the roman numeral increase with barrel diameter.
the 180 is a size VI (the B was there to throw us off)
and the 210mm is a size VII.
I've cross posted this to the F32 Largeformat listserve where other dinosaurs congregate, maybe we can stir some memories.
Oh yes, the photo.......
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Les, in older lenses series #s usually refer to the design. Typically, lenses engraved series # were offered in a range of focal lengths. So for example, a Protar Series V, usually sold as f/18, is an extreme wide angle. The Tessar Series IIb, introduced in 1902, was a f/6.3 lens sold in focal lengths of 1.5" to 23.25", they all covered 70 degrees. The Tessar Series Ic was an f/4.5 lens, introduced in 1906, focal lengths from 1.5" to 20". To add to the fun, in 1923 Zeiss issued a Tessar Series Ic as an f/3.5 lens. All this from the guide to the perplexed and source of perplexity for the guided.
Cheers,
Dan |
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Dan Fromm
Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2144
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:23 am Post subject: |
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On 2003-06-25 16:39, disemjg wrote:
AHA! So the Roman numerals denote the physical size of the barrel. Since it looks so drastically different, I will try to post a photo of my 18.
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I doubt it, see my reply to Les. If they're in good order, use 'em and don't look back.
Cheers,
Dan |
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Les
Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Dan,
Remember that with have a Tessar Series Ic with a Roman numeral "X" on the barrel, and we have a Protar Series VIIa with a roman numeral "IV on the barrel.
Richard Knoppow found his Zeiss catalog from 1926 and these are indeed, barrel diameters from Zeiss. They also could be fitted with slip over or slip in filters. Please note there is NO correlation with the Kodak/Wratten Series filters that are commonly known on this site. |
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Dan Fromm
Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2144
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 11:41 am Post subject: |
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On 2003-06-26 19:17, Les wrote:
Dan,
Remember that with have a Tessar Series Ic with a Roman numeral "X" on the barrel, and we have a Protar Series VIIa with a roman numeral "IV on the barrel.
Richard Knoppow found his Zeiss catalog from 1926 and these are indeed, barrel diameters from Zeiss. They also could be fitted with slip over or slip in filters. Please note there is NO correlation with the Kodak/Wratten Series filters that are commonly known on this site.
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Thanks for the clarification. I'm afraid I missed that completely.
Cheers,
Dan |
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Les
Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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To further illuninate (or confuse) Peter Roody found that the subscript denotes the lenght of the barrel. Thus they made at least two different barrels with X diameter, an X1 and an X2. Here's his post....
"As was posted, this indicates barrel size (diameter). The largest size is a XVIII (182 mm outside diameter). My 1910 catalog indicates 19 different diameters with 28 barrel sizes based on diameter and length. When a subscript number appears, it indicates a different barrel length for the same diameter. For instance, a IV with a subscript "1" is 33 mm long while a IV with a subscript "2" is 23 mm long."
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