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Calling owners of Top Handle Speed Graphic cameras,
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:13 pm    Post subject: Calling owners of Top Handle Speed Graphic cameras, Reply with quote

I'm trying to pin down when F&S replaced the folding wind key with the rigid wind key.

So I'm looking for serial numbers.

I've got # 32,250 with a folding key, but my earliest camera with a rigid key is 110,845. That's a huge gap! (shoulda bought more cameras!)

So I'm calling everybody to check your Top Handle Speed* with serial numbers between what I have above.

*Sometimes those top handles were replaced with side handles, so if you have a camera with a folding wind key, I'd like to know the serial number too, even if the handle is on the side. If you not sure what I'm talking about here's a photo....


http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/Les_Newcomer/Top%20Handle%20Speed%20Graphic/Windkeysweb.jpg

A slightly different tactic are the Graflex catalogs. Graflex is notoriously stubborn about updating the image in the catalogs (they use the same image from 1921-1929, so they show a Top Handle even when they are selling Pre-Anns!) But I'm still willing to look. ...

I have a 1914 and a 1917 catalog. The '14 catalog has a folding key, the '17 has a rigid key. Can anybody check a '15 or '16 catalog?
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bruiser



Joined: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 260
Location: Northern NSW Australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Les,
I have 3 Top Handles, all early ones with the folding key.

For your records they are:
4 x 5 #29419
5 x 7 #30079
3 x 5 1/2 #31930

And one early Side Handle with the rigid key:
4 x 5 #87620

Looks like I should've bought more too!!

Do you think maybe it was a mod brought about by WW1? A stronger key needed in the field??? My Side Handle above dates to 1918-19 (I think!)

Cheers from Downunder,
Bruce
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, much appreciated. On the one with the side handle, is it short and rather thick/ deep (about 4" deep) or rather tall and skinny (about 3" deep)?

I suspect that his side handle is really a top handle in disguise. Check under the top for vestiges of the top handle posts, there's usually a plugged hole near the serial number.

Is the metal finished in that typical oxidized silver or painted grey?
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bruiser



Joined: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 260
Location: Northern NSW Australia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again Les,
Since pictures are worth 1000 words, here are 6000 words about #87620:








This camera belonged to Wide World Photos (very early press agency) at some stage. It has a specially reinforced back on the handle side, a great old Pan-Am decal in the rear and an early model flash and synchronizer fitted. I have replaced the reflector as the old one was badly damaged.

As you can see there is no sign of a top handle and I can't find any sign of plugs under the top.

Hardly mint condition but I wish it could talk!!

I just had a closer look at the serial number and it is 81620, not 87620.
The speed plate on the side says Folmer Graflex Corp which was the name from 1928-46 so maybe the shutter mechanism and plate were replaced at some stage. The serial number is DEFINITELY correct this time, no doubt at all.

Cheers,
Bruce


Last edited by bruiser on Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's a super nice Pre-Ann and I love the flash! I"m guessing it's an early Mendelsohn?

I think they messed up your serial number at the factory. I have a very similar camera with the reinforcing plate, tombstone shaped wire finder, even a plate over the focus knob where your World Wide Photo tag is.

My camera is in the 165xxx block. If I add a 1 to your serial number I get a batch of 3x4 Speeds ending with 187682. The next block of serial number is for 250 4x5 Speeds. So it's possible your camera was part of this batch, they just missed a 1 when stamping the serial number (and made a few 4x5s instead of 3x4s.
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bruiser



Joined: 15 Oct 2006
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Location: Northern NSW Australia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Les, it is a Mendelsohn flash (son of Eveready judging by the shape!).

I had a microscopic look at the body serial number again and there was not even the faintest wisp of an extra '1' at the beginning, so it could well have come from the batch you mentioned.

At least that would explain the Folmer Graflex Corp shutter speed plate.
Unlike Graflex to have an anomaly

Thanks for sharing your knowledge again.
Cheers,
Bruce


Last edited by bruiser on Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
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Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce,

regarding the 4x5 29419, is that one a short and squat model? The short one s are 4" thick and have almost no trim above and below the spring back. In fact they are almost the same height as a 3x4. Ant the handle goes straight across

It's always been a known fact that early top handle speeds have the handle at an angle (to make room for the view finder) and later speeds have them straight across ('cause they're thicker) But I've got a short, short, fat, straight handled Speed with a serial number of 31663. If I can find another the same size then I have a pattern. Otherwise I have an anomaly.

thanks again,

Les
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bruiser



Joined: 15 Oct 2006
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Location: Northern NSW Australia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Les,
Below are pics of 4x5 #29419. I wouldn't say the handle goes straight across but I'm sure you know what you are looking for.







The body is almost 4" thick. Obviously the rear leather is missing, but apart from that it is in pretty solid condition, and the FP shutter seems almost usable!

Cheers,
Bruce


Last edited by bruiser on Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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DHF845



Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 103
Location: Hudson Valley Area, Upstate NY

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les-&-Bruiser- Speed w/ side-handle looks like a Pre-Ann. Never seen a 4x5 Top-Handle with a focus knob up at leading edge of bed. Cut-out for knob on 4x5 Top-Handle is centered on right side of camera, half-way between top & bottom .
I have an RB Series B Graflex that only shows 5 digits in the serial number. It's missing the 1st # in its 6-digit number. The camera was made around 1937 (based on lens, trim finish, hood style, etc).
I've got a compact 4x5 Top-Handle that measures about 6-1/4 x 6-1/4 x 4 inches. The handle runs straight across the top. Its serial # is 86235, in a run of other top-handle Speeds, made 1917-1918. It has a solid, non-folding key. The finish is oxidized brass.
I also have a Pre-Ann s.n. 185282 (c.1934). Its finish is gray painted brass. If the 1st digit wasn't stamped, it would seem to be from same period as the Top-Handle (i.e. 85282).
When did F & S replace the 'compact' 4x5 body with the taller, narrower style 4x5? Was the 'compact' style 4x5 introduced at the start of production?
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bruiser



Joined: 15 Oct 2006
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Location: Northern NSW Australia

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I love about Graflex....the totally consistent inconsistencies!!

Everything is in order and then some clown loses his #1 punch and thinks 'oh well, I'll just punch the rest of the number in anyway'. Good joke son!!!

Little did he know that 75 years later poor simple people like us would try and figure out what year our cameras were actually built in.

Anyway, thanks DHF845, I'm glad I'm not the only member of the missing #1 club!

Cheers,
Bruce
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DHF,
This has always been a bit of a mystery for me and it wasn't until I posted this that I solved the enigma.

I've always thought the picture in the catalog was a 4x5 Speed. Richard Paine said in his book that it was replaced by the smaller more compact "Speed Special" in 1924. But the Speed Specials I found were tall and thin but had a very fat / thick back to them.





It seemed the only difference between a regular Speed and a Speed Special was the thick back. Why?

Because I got it wrong. The catalog photo is NOT a 4x5 but a 3 1/4 x 5 1/2 camera. The 4x5 was, from the start short, squat and fat. In 1924 they converted at least some of a batch of 3 1/4 x 5 1/2 cameras to 4x5 These were the Speed Specials. These bodies were designed for the longer 3 1/4 x 5 1/2 film holder and if the 4x5 film holders are centered on the camera, the holder ends up flush with the left side and there's no way to grab it to remove it. The fat back was designed to allow a finger hold / bevel to grab the holder.

There is one more mystery to be solved with the Top Handle series and I probably should post this separately. There was one last batch of 4x5 Speeds made after the Speed Specials. They would have serial numbers between 148650 and 149949. What did they look like?

Did they go back to the short, squat version?

Were they made identical to the Speed Specials, using the wider body of the 3x5

or

Were they skinny like the 3x5 but proportioned to fit a 4x5 holder foreshadowing the Pre Anniversary?

At least two of these cameras survived into the 70s-80s as they showed up in a dealer's list, but where they went from there I don't know.
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bruiser



Joined: 15 Oct 2006
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Location: Northern NSW Australia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for comparison to Les' camera above, here is my standard 3 1/4 x 5 1/2 with the 'normal' thickness back. Les' one is obviously a spring back while mine is a Graflex back but you can see the difference in the body molding.






Note the little Speed Graphic plate, which is attached to the body itself, not the drop bed as with Les' camera.

Cheers,
Bruce
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DHF845



Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 103
Location: Hudson Valley Area, Upstate NY

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les & Bruiser--So, does this mean that earliest 4x5's were made in 'short, squat' style, which was discontinued in 1923?. The next year the "4x5 Special" came out, which was really a 3-1/4 x 5-1/2 with a 4x5 back? To further confuse things, the 1913 catalog lists dimensions of a 4x5 as 2-7/8 x 7 x 8-1/2 inches-hardly short and squat.
How did F & S get away with vague record-keeping when they were part of EKCo? Kodak was a huge bureaucracy, yet it sounds like F & S Division was run like a small, family business.
Posted here Aug. 24, 2008: Someone asked "What is this?". The answer was it was a 1912 4x5 Speed (s.n. 29304). Pictures with the posting showed it was the "short, squat" body style but with a diagonal handle. When did they decide to run handle straight across?
The 1921 catalog shows dimensions for a 4x5 Speed being 4 x 6-1/2 x 6-3/8 inches (exactly what my c. 1917 Top-Handle measures). The 1923 catalog doesn't list a 4x5 Speed at all.
I never knew some models had little brass name plates above the hinge on the inside. I learn something new every time I log on.
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Got first Speed Graphic at 15 (1976).Other kids were using 35mm SLR's. I ran around with flashbulbs and sheet-film holders, I wanted to be Weegee (#2084).
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bruiser



Joined: 15 Oct 2006
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Location: Northern NSW Australia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi DHF845,

Sure wish I had the great set of early catalogs you have!

It does seem as if EKCo treated F & S like the talented child born out of wedlock; the cameras sold well so the poor record keeping and midstream design changes could be overlooked and they remained in the family.

The F & S cameras appear to be more individual than those of EKCo, and made by craftsmen who added their own touch. For example, the shutter speed plates, that moved around all over the right side and top of the earlier Graphic cameras, and around the right side and hoods of the Graflexes. Even in Les' 4x5 Special above the plate is vertical, on my 3x5 it's horizontal. Whether that was some kind of signature, who knows.

As for the different size Speed Graphics in the 4x5 format I have learned more in the last few days than during the last 10 years! And now I am getting REALLY confused!!!

Thanks Les and DHF845, this is great. To everyone else - there must be more Top Handles out there - show us what you've got!

Cheers,
Bruce
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
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Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DHF845 wrote:
Les & Bruiser--So, does this mean that earliest 4x5's were made in 'short, squat' style, Someone asked "What is this?". The answer was it was a 1912 4x5 Speed (s.n. 29304). Pictures with the posting showed it was the "short, squat" body style but with a diagonal handle. When did they decide to run handle straight across?


I used to equate the angled handle with the skinny body, but that doesn't work as the quote you have plus brusier's short, fat 4x5 also has the handle at an angle. I've got a straight handled Speed, also short and squat, that's serial number 31025. For something like this it could have gone back and forth. I've been at this since '87, seriously working on the history since '93. Back then I would have said, that once they made a change it stuck. HA! Today I'm more inclined to say when employee No. 7 was at the drill press they were straight, when employee No. 9 was at the drill press they were angled.

My Speed Special has been er modified (raped is a bit strong) There's no question this camera had at least one rangefinder added to it at one time and I think that's why the shutter table was rotated (the horizontal holes are still there. If you look carefully the shutter trip lever is painted Pre-Ann grey, and while it might be hard to see from this photo, it's not a standard trip lever, PRoduction trip levers, from the earliest Top Handle to the last Anny, have a 90° angle from the cable release to the finger release. This one has been stamped so the angle is more acute. This brings the finger release closer to the back of the camera and away from the range finder.

As to the 4x5 Special and the Speed Graphic body plates. They seem to come and go with no reason. I've got 10 Top Handles and only one ( a 3x4 has the tag. I have two Speed Specials, but only one has the '4x5 Special' tag.

I've been accepted to give a lecture at the 14th Triennial PhotoHistory symposium in October at the George Eastman House. The title of the paper is "From Burners, to Bicycles, to Bug Zappers and 87 Cameras in between; How Folmer & Schwing changed Photography" . I hope to have my book done for the event.

Bruiser said, "As for the different size Speed Graphics in the 4x5 format I have learned more in the last few days than during the last 10 years! And now I am getting REALLY confused!!! "

My reply to Brusier is, "Welcome to my world" It's actually much worse than you know!

I've got to restrain myself a bit more, because if I'm writing here, I'm not writing my book! and it's GOT to be finished ASAP.

A great big heartfelt thank you for all of your help so far and I hope I can count on your help in the future. I only have so many cameras, but with Graflex.org's family of cameras we can learn a whole lot more.

Les
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