Graflex.org

[djon]

Does a little bit of lighter fluid, injected into the side of the shutter, have any hope at all of fixing balky slow speeds?

With old Leicas it's definitely true that exercise will fix slow speeds. But I wonder if this applies to old view/press shutters.

What do you think? My incredibly sharp 80mm Heliar is no use below 15th...but I'd rather fix it myself than send it away..

[Henry]

The so-called "Ronsonol flush" has been discussed extensively on the board, with varying opinions as to its effectiveness. All I can say is that, from my own experience, I've cured two balky Graphex shutters this way. I also add very fine powdered graphite to the Ronsonol (others have recoiled in horror at the thought, but I've had no problems so far, i.e., several years later). Just be sure you remove the front and rear lens elements before you flush!

[troublemaker]

might i suggest trying it on a shutter you do not favor or care much about first?

[djon]

The shutter's a Synchro Compur. Nice looking.
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I'm going to recall my high school solvent training: I'll first try a clean, lower level solvent: denatured alcohol NOT rubbing alcohol because of all the water and misc crap it includes ***AND DEFINITELY NOT ACETONE, a very high level solvent I happened CARELESSLY to have in an identical-looking can, right next to the alcohol..different label at least..careless of me, acetone's FAR more dangerous than most solvents and I will henceforth keep it very separate.

Wish me luck with the alcohol.

Here goes..

FRONT AND REAR ELEMENTS REMOVED (backside of a mouse pad provided a good grip)...

...5 minutes later (OUTDOORS for safety...I prefer red wine to denatured's fumes)...

Poured maybe 1-2 ozs of denatured alcohol directly into the back of the shutter, directly onto the half-open (f8 for no particular reason) diaphragm blades.

Immediately operated the shutter at all the speeds while still wet to distribute alcohol throughout the mechanism.

All speeds *immediately* worked well wet, no waiting: Everything from 15th down had previously been very slow, very erratic.

1/8 and slower previously didn't shut more than half of the time if then. Now the 1/8 sounds right, the 1/4 sounds credible, the 1/2 sounds like 1 sec, the 1 sounds like 2. Good enough for jazz!

...10 minutes further along...

Alcohol's mostly gone, still smells, still seen on the shutter blades and inside of f32 diaphragm when shutter's open. The assembly's very cold from alcohol evaporation. Denatured alcohol evaporates very rapidly.

I'll reinstall the lenses in the shutter in a half hour or so, but only after the alcohol smell's gone.

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Done. Saved $75 plus shipping.

Shutter speeds sound great, same as when wet.
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I'd advise denatured alcohol rather than any other common solvent, especially stove fuel.

Denatured alcohol is a low level solvent, readily obtained from hardware stores in small containers...less likely to damage plastics or paints than other common solvents, less dangerous to have sitting around in your garage...but still dangerous to use indoors.

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This is a great forum! Thanks for your quick response as well as ancient posts titled Ronsonol.

[RichS]

I wish I could recall my high school chemistry....

So is denatured alcohol safer to use than naptha? (safer to shutter parts that is). I would have thought that naptha would be ledd aggresive? But if the alcohol is safer, I'll switch


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"Ya just can't have too many GVIIs"
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[djon]

High school was 40+ years ago. All I recall is that the lowest level of solvent is water, then comes alcohol, then the various complex petrochemicals (like naptha, I think).

I might have used naptha if I happened to have it, chose not to use Coleman fuel because I don't like fooling with it (should toss it except I'm attached to an old Coleman stove) and don't believe the claims that it's free from lubricants. I happened to have the denatured alcohol.

Denatured alcohol is pure ethyl alcohol..it would be 200proof (100%) except that it's got some nasty stuff in it, even worse than vermouth, to prevent use with olives. It stinks. It's used in old fashioned alcohol stoves (by cranky old guys on wooden boats), doesn't burn as hot as white gas/coleman, isn't as explosive. Not much fun.

In any case, just a little denatured alcohol clearly works .. the shutter's still buzzing steadily for same-sounding slow times and clicking snappily for the fast ones.

[disemjg]

FWIW, I used to use denatured alcohol for cleaning shutters, but have found the Ronsonal to be far superior. It seems to cut the old lube better, and makes it a lot easier to get the diaphragm and shutter blades free of the last traces of flushed out crud. The Ronsonal also dries quickly. I still use the alcohol for a lot of things on my bench, but not for shutters anymore.

Note that the alcohol will attack some paints, and I have not found any paint that the ronsonal hurts yet.

I usually give my shutters a thourough rinse with the ronsonal; the shutters are open and the camplates lifted off. I give the accessable lube points a touch with a dip oiler, but I'm not sure that is even necessary as they seem to work without it. Note that on a Compur I have found that you HAVE to lube the cocking ring where it encircles the barrel. Otherwise the slow speeds will not run off. The cocking lever needs to move freely as its inertia appears to help the geartrain travel through its full motion.

[45PSS]

Denatured Alcohol will disolve adheasives slowly. The shutter blades or the aperture blades may start to deteriorate after a few days or weeks.

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The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.

[djon]

Shutter blades and the aperture blades on Compur and other good modern shutters are made properly, of tempered spring steel, as most view/press shutters.

You can see what your shutter and diaphragm are made of by simply looking at them. It's obvious.

Denatured alcohol evaporates almost instantly, ie within minutes. It does not dissolve things after it has evaporated (ie left the scene).

If parts were glued together with rubber cement, hide glue, or other improper glues, which they are of course not, they would fail within moments of being soaked.

I used my Compur all day today, it clicked and buzzed merrily, sounds great at all speeds...superb, in fact. There's zero hangup
at 1 second.

Modern glues are not dissolved by common solvents such as denatured alcohol, in any case. Epoxy and super-glue, for example, are not dissolved that way.

Denatured alcohol is comparable to highest proof vodka, almost identical chemically. If you were patient, didn't mind wasting a sacrament, didn't fear rust from the water that constitutes half of vodka, you could use it to soak your shutter.

[djon]

The proof is in the pudding.

That some paints are dissolved by alcohol is obvious (spill alcohol on a nice varnished antique to see what I mean). That does not even hint that plastic or metalic shutter elements are threatened by it.

The glop that accumulates in shutters is substantially oil. That means it needs alcohol or a petrochemical to dissolve it, unless you're prepared to boil it (!!!).

The fact that naptha dissolves faster than alcohol is one good reason to avoid using it indoors...it'll kill you quicker.

[djon]

...I apologize for sounding snappish...don't take my solvent experience to the bank.

Maybe my shutter will fall apart in a week or a month. But it's beautiful a day after treatment. Who wants to live forever anyway?

the fine print: I have only been speaking of my experience with a Synchro Compur Graflex shutter that came mounted with an 80mm f2.8 Heliar...same shutter that I recall on my old XL. Modern, ie 60's.

I once had a shutter whose blades semed hard rubber...mounted on a huge old Turner Reich (Ilex shutter?). I always used it T, f64 or 128, Plus X 8X10,. I never used the shutter's speeds. One-a-thousand, two-a-thousand, etc.

I don't think Rapax, Compur, or other relatively modern shutters have parts that can be dissolved by alcohol :

Somebody will provide specifics if I'm wrong.

It'd also be interesting to know which shutters are assembled with easily-dissolved glues. If this is so, someone will be specific.

Denatured alcohol's strong smell is added to stop W.C. Fields types from imbibing it...it's not otherwise chemically significant (doesn't dissolve anything) and leaves virtually no trace after evaporation.

[glennfromwy]

There were some shutters that had blades (usually just aperture blades) made of a composite material, notably those made during wartime. I have used some pretty powerful solvents on some of them and never had any fall apart if the blades were good to start with. I have a 103mm Graftar in one of those little Century shutters. It has composite blades throughout. I don't think I want to even try to clean that thing. Those were a really crappy little shutter. The Graflex factory specified solvent for cleaning shutters seems to be hard to find now. Today I found that I had been working with the stuff for decades and didn't know it. It's non flammable, too. You definitely don't want to use this stuff on shutters with composite blades without complete diassembly, though. It will dissolve them. If anyone wants to know what the stuff is and what it's packaged as, leave me a PM. It's available at auto parts stores.

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Glenn

"Wyoming - Where everybody is somebody else's weirdo"

[45PSS]

Way back in the DARK AGES , early '70's, I used denatured alcohol to clean the stylus on my turntable. Worked great but the diamond fell out of the stylus a day or two later. When the second one did the same thing I started using different cleaners as $60 for replacement styli was pricey.
I currently have an Ilex or two that have hard rubber shutter blades. Denatured alcohol would spell DISASTER!

Most if not all non proteleum Electronic contact cleaners will work as well as any other solvent discussed.

Oh yes, Lacquer thinner will do the trick every time.

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The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.

[RichS]

Nice to know some people remember the "dark ages"

I don't know what they sell for lacquer thinner nowadays, but back in those 'dark ages' when I used it to paint cars, it was alcohol based. So any precautions regarding alcohol above would apply to lacquer thinner also. Enamel reducer was petroleum based though and would probably be safe, if they even sell it any more?


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"Ya just can't have too many GVIIs"
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[David A. Goldfarb]

Lighter fluid is mostly naphtha, and naphtha is fairly safe for lots of things (like most wood finishes), and it evaporates quickly, so it's my usual solvent of choice for old grease and gummy adhesives.