Graflex.org

shutterfreak · Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Posts: 12 Location: Mid West USA

I am a newbie, but have read over as much as I could on this and other sites about these cameras. I am very interested in a particular:
4x5 Crown Graphic Special with a Xenar 135/4.7 lens , this is going for $345. Tell me, what is the difference in the Special vs. the regular Crown Graphic? Am I going to run out of image circle with this lens? How much latitude in movements does this camera provide? And lastly is this even worth pursuing, being as old as it is?

Thanks alot.

t.r.sanford · Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:15 pm Post subject:

As far as I know, all that was special about the "Crown Special" was that it came bundled with the Schneider "Xenar" lens. These cameras came along toward the end, after most American optical companies had gotten out of the photographic lens manufacturing business. I'll be interested in learning what the Graflex historians on this site have to say about the "Crown Special."

The 135mm. "Xenar" should give you entirely adeequate coverage if used on axis. Like the "Optar," "Raptar" and "Tessar" lenses of this focal length often supplied with "Graphic" and other 4x5 press cameras, its intended use is as a moderately wide "normal" lens. It will not allow much in the way of front movements; people using the camera hand-held did not need them.

I've seen "Crown Specials" advertised for higher prices than the one you quote, so it does not seem exorbitant to me, if it's in good shape. If your primary intended use involves a tripod and a rising, shifting and tilting front, you might find a "Crown" body for less, and seek out a lens producing a larger image circle.

If movements in general are what you need, perhaps a view camera would be a better choice, e.g. the "Graphic View" -- a fine performer, and (I think) pleasantly undervalued on the used market!

Nick · Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 494

If you go to the Schiender website they provide the stats for the lens. You'll need to look under the vintage [or something like that] part of the website.

t.r.sanford · Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:41 pm Post subject:

...and, at the risk of belaboring the obvious, the "Crown Special" has a top rangefinder. Earlier "Crown Graphics" sometimes did, and sometimes did not -- you could buy one without a rangefinder, then have a Kalart or the Graflex top rangefinder/viewfinder installed later.

I've been using a "Pacemaker Speed Graphic" that's probably 15 or 20 years older than the "Crown Special," dropped it down stairs and subjected it to all sort of other unintentional abuse. It has been in the shop once, and it still takes great pictures. They're not making them like that any more!

"As old as it it" -- if the "Crown Special" will do the job you want to do and you can assure yourself that no one has fired a gun through it (or get a 10-day return guarantee), I say go for it.

disemjg · Joined: 10 Jan 2002 Posts: 474 Location: Washington, DC

As has been pointed out, these are only considered "special" because of the lens. Oh, and the lensboard is stenciled "SPECIAL" over the lens. Others have occasionally expressed an opinion that the Xenars are somewhat inconsistent in quality, but the three I have owned were all good, and I would have taken them over their Optar and Ektar sisters.

For some reason, a lot of dealers try to get a substantial premium for these. The price you gave is very reasonable, and you should by all means pick it up if the camera is in good shape. Quiz the dealer before you have them send it to you, in particular asking that the rangefinder is accurate and that the shutter works correctly. Be sure you have a full return privilige, preferably without a restocking fee. Be reasonable in your expectations, as this is probably a perfectly fine user grade camera but may not be in minty collectable condition.

shutterfreak · Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Posts: 12 Location: Mid West USA

Thank you for the help, one more question for t.r.sanford. What was the price for your graphic view? what lens do you have for it? I think that this Crown Special will work for me, if it is not incredibly beat up.

45PSS · Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:22 am Post subject:

t.r.sanford · Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:27 am Post subject:

I got my "Graphic View II" at the (late lamented) Camera Barn store in New York City in (I think) 1972. I paid $200 for it, with a hard carrying case but no lens. I used it for many years with an f:4.5 180mm. Wollensak "Velostigmat" lens, primarily for product photography (swings and tilts more important than rise/fall and shift). I now use a 203mm. f:7.7 Kodak "Ektar," because I eventually cracked the cable release socket plate inside the (dial-set "Compur") shutter housing of the "Velostigmat," and I haven't gotten around to making a new one (very tedious). I paid about $100 for the "Ektar" in Chicago about 20 years ago, at another now-defunct camera shop. The "Ektar" provides a sufficiently large image circle for all practical purposes (the "Velostigmat" performs very capably, too, in most situations).

I very recently acquired a "View I" on eBay for about $175, with a few clean filmholders and some useful small stuff. It actually is cleaner than the "View II" was when I purchased it.

These are very light, beautifully crafted monorail ("optical bench") cameras. I've used the "View II" on a Gitzo 4-section "Tatalux" tripod, in emergencies, though I certainly wouldn't venture a long exposure in a high wind with this setup!

There is much good material on "Graphic Views" on this site.

glennfromwy · Joined: 29 Nov 2001 Posts: 903 Location: S.W. Wyoming

As stated, the Crown Special was only special in that it came factory equipped with the Xenar lens, which was a low priced lens. The Xenars were indeed highly variable in quality. As I have stated before, they ran the gamut from outstanding to truly awful. Quality control seemed to be the problem and it seemed to vary with phases of management all the way down the list to what day it was. When they're good, they're usually very good. When they're not..........

_________________
Glenn

"Wyoming - Where everybody is somebody else's weirdo"

primus96 · Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:33 am Post subject:

I have a bog standard side-rangefinder Crown Graphic with the 127mm Ektar.
I think that you ought to make some test exposures before you shoot anything of importance.
look at the thread on the Ektar I initialised when I wanted to know about its quality.
Graflex.org says the Xenar, Ysarex, Optar/Raptar & Ektar are JUST covering 4x5. However the corners may be soft unless you stop down to f1 or smaller.
Certainly with my Ektar there may be still some softness apparent at f22. This should not be a problem unless you plan to make 40" x 32" enlargements.

If it pleases you then its OK.
You can get a flash adapter cord from Paramount if the lens has the bipost flash contacts. Im going to have to get one for my Crown.

Les · Joined: 09 May 2001 Posts: 2682 Location: Detroit, MI

Prmius96's statements are true for the 127 which was designed to cover 3x4, you should be able to get sharp corners with the 135mm.

And yes the only thing Special about the Special was the price as it was about $20 cheaper than the camera with the optar or ektar. Some of that was the rate of currency exchange, some was the cheap price of German labor as the US was subsidizing their economy at the time.

That said My First Graphic was a Special and it's the one I use most often. The Xenar lens did well. Never dropped mine down the stairs but it did slide into a vat of stagnant raw sewage while on a job-- in August. Since there was no way I could be in the same car with this thing after somebody fished it out, I had the pleasure of taking a garden hose to my camera in a janitorial slop sink.

I got it home took it apart, dried everything off and reassembled it. Iwas back to work the next day. At the begining of this job I had the option of using my Hasselblad. I can't believe the Hassy would have faired as well.

_________________
"In order to invent, you need a good imagination and a lot of junk" Thomas Edison

t.r.sanford · Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:53 pm Post subject:

For sure, though a "Hasselblad" probably would hold up better than many modern cameras.

I suppose, then, that if your leather "Graphic" handle ever broke while you were carrying the camera, you were not standing at the top of an airline boarding-stair! ...stuff happens.

disemjg · Joined: 10 Jan 2002 Posts: 474 Location: Washington, DC

I have two Specials right now. One has a Compur shutter and the other is a Copal. Both have a PC sync contact. While I am not sure about it, I do not recall ever seeing either of these shutters with a bipost flash connection. I would expect any Special encountered to thus not need a special synch cord. (!)

Somewhat off topic, but in line with the earlier discussion of our own cameras and how we got them, here is my two cents worth (for the moment). There are some good deals out there, especially for the bold. One of these two Crown Specials was obtained recently in derelect condition for $85. After about ten hours of work (which for me is a hobby and is rewarding in itself) it is now a very nice user grade camera. I have not yet printed the first test negatives, but they look great. I also have the satisfaction of having brought this camera back from the grave to delight some Graphoholic user after I am through with it.

The other Special is indeed special; I got it new in the box this past year. I paid about $300 for it as best as I remember, which is incredibly cheap for a camera found in this condition with all the papers and box. A rare treat.

Both of these deals came from local camera stores. I make sure I visit every real camera store in the area at least once every two weeks, and they know me. They see me coming and they bring out weird stuff, sometimes junk and sometimes gold.

Good deals can also be found from web dealers. I got my GV II from KEH, excellent condition in a very nice compartment case for only $250. A great camera for a great price, and pretty, too.

I cannot top the story about the camera in the sewer; that is a great one. Especially the part about hosing it off. Forget the Hasselbald; think about how some high end modern digital slr would respond. Say your brand new Canon $8k EOS whatever. Would you even bother to fish it out, except for insurance purposes?

[ This Message was edited by: disemjg on 2004-01-29 16:50 ]

primus96 · Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:15 am Post subject:

Dont let my previous comments put you off purchasing the 'Crown Special'.
The Xenar 135mm f4.7 has a image circle of 161mm according to Schneider, which is sufficient for 4x5 with no movements.
It is more important that the shutter runs accurately on the slow speeds as you will be using them quite a lot. If the camera is sold by a dealer then it ought to be in good order. You should ask.

shutterfreak · Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Posts: 12 Location: Mid West USA

Okay everyone,

I have found several Crown Graphics that are interesting. However, I am wary of what the provider calls cleaning marks on the glass or light leaks. Have any of you folks still purchased a camera with these problems? I know that issues with the lens will reduce overall contrast, but how bad could it be??? With light leaks, is there any way to fix that aside from buying a new bellows? ie paint inside???

Thanks, I can almost feel the camera in my hands!!!