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troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

Ok, one can not know everyhting in a week...
I have got a couple or three shutters that are slow and responding to the excersize remedy of just not being used for a while. the glass is very good. I was reading anouther post that mentioned a "Ronsonol" soak. Is this something I can do to free up sticking old springs? I have a couple gallons of that evil old chemical known as
1,1,1,trichlorethane(or something like that, very hard on plastics and skin, but evaporates like cold beer on a hot day). Could I use this, or what kind of chemical is Ronsonol? I also have an old Ektar Supermatic No 2 that seems to fire correctly at a couple speeds 1-1/5 but most, from 1/10 to 1/400 seem about the same,eratically fast. Are these worth sending out, or should I save them for the nice old glass? I have working shutters to use in the meantime, so if there is a reasonable repair shop, do let me know.
regards,
Steve

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primus96 · Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:53 pm Post subject:

They may be referring to a brand of lighter fluid. I am not sure myself but if so its effect would be to dissolve the hardened lubricant.
Lighter fluid is a petroleum spirit so is quite volatile.
I wouldnt like to try it unlessthere was no way it could penetrate inside the lens.

AWT · Joined: 05 Sep 2002 Posts: 57 Location: Upstate SC

"Ronsonol" is a brand name for VM&P Naphtha, as has been mentioned, a very rapidly evaporating petroleum solvent. "Zippo"-brand lighter fluid is the same stuff and you may find other brands in your locality. If you can't find any of these, you might try "Coleman Fuel" (yes, the campstove stuff) as it is also mostly VM&P Naphtha with some anti-corrosion additives tossed in.

Do NOT - I repeat - DO NOT use the 1,1,1-TCE on your shutter. It will kill any plastic parts and strip off any paint.

After a good Ronsonol soak, you may need to lube some of the guts of your shutter. There are pdf files of the old service manuals available online to guide you through the process. Be careful, though, too much lube will kill your shutter or at least necessitate another R-soak. (Hey, did I just coin a new term for us Graphiles?)

"A little dab'll do ya!"

RichS · Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:28 pm Post subject:

Naptha can generally be found in any hardware/home store that sells any kind of paint supplies and would be quite a bit cheaper than the branded "Ronsonal",etc...

And Coleman Fuel is _Gasoline_!!! NOT Naptha! Although gas can be used as a solvent, much stronger precautions have to be taken when it's used...

If you do a search here for naptha or Ronsonaol, I'm sure you'll find the many discussions of shutter cleaning, some of them very detailed.

Ummm, and the lenses come off the shutter before the cleaning...

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AWT · Joined: 05 Sep 2002 Posts: 57 Location: Upstate SC

Sorry, RichS, I stand by my earlier statement: Coleman Fuel is mainly VM&P Naphtha. For an enlightening document that describes some of its other "uses" please see:

http://www.oehha.ca.gov/public_info/pdf/Coleman%20Fuel%20Fact%20Sheet%20Meth%20Labs%2010'03'.pdf

...And the definitive answer from someone who should know (a Coleman employee) is found here:

http://www.gearreview.com/gearfaq/wgcoleman.asp

"Although Coleman fuel and other camp fuels are routinely called white gas, they are actually a naphtha. The two are very similar in characteristics. Naphtha is refined one more step and is therefore considered cleaner. It also has a slightly lower boiling point than unleaded gasoline, although it is in practicality undetectable. Coleman fuel has some additives to help prevent rusting of internal parts and facilitate long shelf life."

Jim Reid --- Coleman, Director of Public Relations

[ This Message was edited by: AWT on 2003-12-09 08:46 ]

RichS · Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:03 pm Post subject:

Well, that was interesting reading. And I suppose that's why Coleman always said their fuel was not "white gas" back in the good 'ol leaded days...

Unfortunately, from the reasearch I've done, calling Coleman Fuel "Naptha" becomes rather meaningless. It seems that Naptha (Naphtha) is one of those elusive products that defies definitive description. It can be made from petroleum, coal, plant material and even wood. It would seem to be simply a liquid hydrocarbon within a specific gravity range and that's about it...

So Coleman Fuel may be Naptha, but that doesn't mean it has any similarities to Ronsonol...

I would also doubt the classification put on Coleman Fuel. I personally doubt that it falls into the Naptha range. It's too thin, and too explosive. Naptha is not in the explosive category. There may have been a slight mistake in the description. "Naphtha is refined one more step and is therefore considered cleaner." I may be wrong, but I think Naptha is a step behind. And Hexane is after all a very nasty compound and a major ingredient in gasoline... And he does state "they are actually _a_ naphtha. The two are _very similar_ in characteristics."

But, a different subject altogether and one I really don't remember from my limited chemistry days... I too stick by my comments about Coleman Fuel though. It's much more dangerous than "Naptha", even if we don't know where the Naptha came from...

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"Ya just can't have too many GVIIs"

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troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

whoa, flamable liquid got a lot of attention !
thanks for reminding me to remove the glass componants, though i realize this and have unscrewed all my glass to clean them and was sure no one meant to soak the glass, just the shutter. i figured 1,1,1, would not be good, but is is the best quick parts cleaner for some things. i have white gas in abundance also, but will do some reading before i do anything. i am quite mechanically inclined, but do not wish to damage my shutters if they can be repaired or serviced for reasonable rates. to me reasonable is about fifty bucks but i am thinking that service runs around $200, and would then look for good shutters with bad glass, or consider trades. if anyone would like to know what good and bad i have accumulated i would be into that off site.
have a good day all,
steve "fire starter, paint melting, troublemaker"

AWT · Joined: 05 Sep 2002 Posts: 57 Location: Upstate SC

Well Rich, I *will* acknowledge that Coleman Fuel may seem to be more flammable than VM&P Naphtha, but I would say that it is only a little more so. It's the added hexane, with its lower boiling-point (their flash-points are nearly identical), that makes CF more flammable (I wouldn't use the word "explosive"). Back in my days as a practicing chemist, I needed to make some "Coleman Fuel" in an emergency. I had plenty of VM&P Naphtha on hand, but I didn't have any hexane for the desired results. I substituted acetone in the blend and it worked just fine. I think it was 80% VM&P/20% Acetone.

You're right about "naphtha" being a generic term that can describe low-boiling aliphatic/alkane mixtures (as opposed to benzene/toluene/xylene among other aromatic or aryl compounds) of a certain boiling or flash range from a variety of sources. That's why I always specify "VM&P Naphtha." Incidentally, "Petroleum Naphtha" is a synonym for n-Hexane.

It gets really confusing when you read terms like "petroleum naphtha", "petroleum distillates", "petroleum ether", "ligroin" and on and on.

But back to the original point: my nasal chromatograph always picks out the VM&P Naphtha in Coleman Fuel. If you can find Ronsonol/Zippo fuel, great! It's a lot cheaper to buy one of those little 8-ounce squirt cans of lighter fluid than to shell out for a quart or gallon of something else. I was merely offering an alternative if these others weren't available.

Without belaboring this thread, in the interest of safety I must point out that ALL of the solvents mentioned have near-room-temperature flash-points and are hazardous to work with around sparks or open flame. That's why they're all red-labelled like gasoline. The fact that n-hexane boils at 156-degrees (F) vs. VM&P Naphtha's 197-degree (F) boiling point is academic because we won't be boiling our shutters in flammable liquids, WILL we, folks!

Henry · Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:15 pm Post subject:

I've been lurking on this topic waiting for the flames to die down so I can leap in with more fuel for the fire.

Ronsonol comes in two sizes of yellow+blue+red plastic containers: big (12oz.), an example of which is before me as I write this, and little (8oz.). You can find them in grocery stores and drugstores in the tobacco aisle. The 12oz. size is slightly more economical, and lasts a long time (i.e., will do many shutters). The only clue on the package as to its chemistry is the phrase "Contains Naphtha." The big size costs about $2.50, as I recall---it's been a while since I had to buy any. So it's considerably more expensive by the gallon than Coleman Fuel, but a lot handier (unless you have another use for Coleman Fuel, as for example if you *actually have* a liquid-fueled Coleman Stove or Lantern).

In my experience, Ronsonol works great to free up sluggish shutters where the cause of said sluggish is dried out lubricant. I doused the shutters of my 101 and 65 Optars with Ronsonol mixed with very fine powdered graphite and this restored them to working condition. No further lubrication has been necessary. You must use very fine powdered graphite, available at many hardware stores. There is some controversy about the use of the graphite. I have never had a problem with it floating around inside the shutter and attaching itself to the inner lens surfaces, but some folks apparently have. I can only report that my experience with this Ronsonol/graphite douse has been entirely satisfactory.

troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

as far as lubing the shutter, this is done to the workings, but absolutely not the shutter or diaphram leaves. besides graphite, what else is used for this purpose?
Oh, so if i want to attempt this (first on one of my shutters i do not care about), can i do this without dissassembling the shutter by wetting it and then working the movements, or do i need to remove the face plate or back. i would attempt an old supermatic #2 first which has some screws on the face that look to be easily removed.
then i have a couple nice Graphex and Compurs that are only slow on the 1sec and 1/2, but otherwise very nice and clean units which have taken nice exposures at 1/25 - 1/125. should i leave them alone and just use the bulb setting and time them instead?

good day,
steve

Dan Fromm · Joined: 14 May 2001 Posts: 2144 Location: New Jersey

JoePhoto · Joined: 13 Oct 2001 Posts: 75 Location: New England

Whatever you choose make sure you have plenty of ventilation and beware of any sparks or even static discharge. Although brief I'm sure a static spark is hot enough to ignite napthat vapors and in the right combination with air could be considered explosive. In my younger days I popped the plastic top off of a can of Ronsonol and touch a match to the open end. My first "rocket" went a good 25 feet!!

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troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

well, i was going to use solvent outside no matter what i use. too many years of refinishing yachts.
what about something milder like a high quality mineral spirits or kerosene, which are not as fumy and less volitile?
i read here that shutter repair can be quite pricy, and around 200.00. however, i have three that probably only need routine CLA as you have mentioned above. judging form the results i have been getting from these old lenses, as compared to the lofty prices of new ones, they are definitely worth at least having the CLA done. the local shop that pushes hasslebla was kinda surprized by the results i got with my 200.00 Century. the protrait images were actually too sharp, and get this, with a trioptar. i have not used my, like new 1947 Ektar 105 in a flash supermatic. the trioptar images look sharp edge to edge the full 6x9 stopped down to f8 with provia 100. my friends wife will hate me if i print them straight as they are I don't have a difuser yet that i can hand hold, so will try to soften in the dark room. perhaps i should use my beat up Ektar 127 for protraits if i can get the shutter fixed up.
well, thanks everyone for all the flamable feedback.
regards,
steve

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Henry · Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:53 am Post subject:

I should have said to try the plain Ronsonol (no graphite) first, as this may be enough to redissolve the old lube and get your shutter ticking again. I would definitely not try mineral spirits and especially not kerosene, because of the gummy, oily residue it will leave (N.B. "Valve oil" for brass instruments is essentially deodorized kerosene!). The Ronsonol leaves no detectible residue, as far as I can tell.

Both shutters on which I successfully used the Ronsonol/graphite are Graphex no. 1, which don't have plastic diaphragm blades (or plastic anything else, AFAIK). I can't make any claims for other brands.

[ This Message was edited by: Henry on 2003-12-09 17:55 ]

45PSS · Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:32 am Post subject:

Take the bad shutter less the glass, an empty jar with a lid, the Ronsonol, a comfortable chair, and a Large Cold One, and head to the DEEPEST part of the shade of a large tree. Once there, open the chair and sit down. Now put the shutter in the jar , pour in the Ronsonol and put the lid on. Open the cold one and agaitate the shutter as you sip the cold one.
Do not consume more than a six pack and do not drink the Ronsonol.

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