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Century pros and cons?

 
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troublemaker



Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 715
Location: So Cal

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graflex.org and the bord here have been helpful in learning about theze historic cameras. I will not refer to them as relics, but vintage seems fitting. I have been messing with the neigbor's Crown and now have my own, but for packing i am thinking about the Century. I am aware of the Graflok backs etc. i simply can't justify the prices of the Hassels in the medium format. For me the Centruy is atractive because of the ability to use three different formats 6x6-6x9; the ;later being attractive for horizontals and wide landscapes etc. But, and this is the question, will these mini field cameras take sharp images? I have been having some fyn with the Crown, but it is just too big for my needs in the backcountry and climbing adventures. I have been trying out an old Rolleicord also, but the lens restrictions and 6x6 limit doesn't way out for me when a Century offers some front standard movements. But are these movements actually useful on the medium size?
One last question: I am aware that lens quality has most to do with the image of course, but are there, or is it worth putting a highquality and priced lens on one of these, or should i stick with my nikon 35mm? I read the info on the Century at this site, and am aware what the critics say about the Grafter and triopters. WIll the schneider 105 really cover 6x7 or more, or should i try and stick one of my 4x5 135's or try and get an old 90mm or the like?
More to follow, and thanks to the vets for responding to the new comers, because i have learned a lot from those responses.
regards from the curious
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davebias



Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Posts: 43
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey there troublemaker,

As a fellow Graflex newbie with just a couple of shoots under my belt, I'll give you my impressions of owning a Century...

First off, I'll say this. I love my Century kit. For less than the price of a Hasselblad body, I've got a full outfit of equipment able to take beautiful 6x6 and 6x9 images. And if you're anything like me, abandoning my digital camera and computer and using this piece of mechanical ingenuity is a thrill in and of itself.

So to answer your specific questions:

a) Are the movements useful? -- The movements are few and limited. But the fact is that there ARE movements and my understanding is that many times, a little is all you need. I have yet to use them myself...

b) Lenses to use? Here's a list of what I've got and my impressions based on about 12 rolls of film shot in the last 3 weeks - 8 of which were for paying clients:

101mm/f4.5 Wollensak Velostigmat - my usual lens - very sharp, slightly contrasty - I'm extremely happy with this lens

103mm/f4.5 Graflex Graftar - did a portrait session with this because I could fire shots quicker since it's self-cocking - client and myself both extremely happy with results. Despite what is said about the quality of this lens, I've got no complaints.

83mm/f6.3 Kodak Anastigmat (super ancient, in a dial-set sutter)- pulled this off a rotting Kodak folder I found at the flea market for $15. I don't think it covers 2x3 and it's not the sharpest glass - giving the pictures a slightly "polaroid-ish" feel. However, that's what I was hoping, so I'm glad. I've only shot 4 frames with this, but I think I might end up using it a lot.

135mm/f6.8 Graflex Optar - quirky shutter/coating separation/back element fused but not screwed on all the way. Even with those flaws, I was amazed that it took the sharpest pictures of all my lenses except the 101mm. I shot a whole roll of this during my portrait session just to see how the defects would affect the image. I was actually kind of sad that they looked so good.

8"/f5.6 Wollensak Tele-Raptar - I've only shot 6 shots with this lens, all of the same subject, but checking the negatives under the loupe, they look really sharp and contrasty.

So maybe you can tell from this description - but I'm not looking to get tack-sharp images, and have been actively seeking lenses with "character" - but my lenses, which are among the cheapest of their various kinds, are more than sharp enough for professional work.

All that said, I've gotta tell you this - if I had the cash to lay down on a brand new wide angle Schneider Super-Symmar or something like that, I would. But only after I bought a Horseman or Ebony 6x9 camera...

The biggest problem I have is that I don't have a Polaroid back. Some say the Horseman 6x9 back will work, but it's tough for me to spend $250 just to be able to shoot instant film. That's more than I spent on the camera most of my lenses combined. So instead, I've been exploring ways to adapt a standard 405 back to my Century. I'll keep you posted on the progress.

All in all, the plusses completely outweigh the minuses. I'm able to shoot (relatively) cheap, easy to handle 120 film, carry it all around with me in one pack, and like I said, the whole kit cost less than a Hasselblad body.

Hope this helps.


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troublemaker



Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 715
Location: So Cal

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the feedback,
sounds like you are putting 4x5 lenses on the Century and having success. am i correct in assuming this?
i have an Ektar 127/4.7, Ektar105/3.7 which seems to cover, or nearly so at 4x5, a tired Wollensak 90/6.8 and an Optar135/4.7. All these have very good glass with no apparent flaws. start boaring out lensboards?
polroids for these seem to be a popular item on this help board. i don't think i'll be carrying one on cross country rambles through the high sierra. i am still thinking about building a short stout bomb proof (but miraculously light) tripod i can tie down on boulders.
from looking around on ebay i see that some Centuries are coming up pretty quick, like tomorrow, and a couple just sold with lots of crap with them. from what i see there, a decent machine (with roll film backs) only bids out at about the price, less actually than a Hassel film back(new), one could by two or three for the price of a newer Hassel body. i need to do some portraits (something new for me) of a friend's familly. maybe i'll try a Century instead of the old Rollei that has a questionable shutter i am just now taking shots with.
sounds like i'll be burning through some 120 rolls shortly, then it's off to the eastern sierra and the southwest...
"troublemaker" steve
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troublemaker



Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 715
Location: So Cal

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. if i can get a Century with a working range-finder, are they good enough to leave the viewing hood and ground glass behind. the one on the Crowns i have a little experience with do not appear to be calibrated, and thus can not judge the potential accuracy. If they are good, i could possibly go for some sailboat stuff where constant focussing is a necessity. some big negatives, if sharp, would be impressive. i have been kicking around ideas of how to adapt newer filters to these old lenses, polorizer, or 1.5 Sky etc becuase they have newer coatings. I have noticed lot of glare on these older lenses.
anyway, have a good day
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2148
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-11-24 22:25, troublemaker wrote:
But, and this is the question, will these mini field cameras take sharp images?

a Century offers some front standard movements. But are these movements actually useful on the medium size?

One last question: I am aware that lens quality has most to do with the image of course, but are there, or is it worth putting a highquality and priced lens on one of these, or should i stick with my nikon 35mm?

WIll the schneider 105 really cover 6x7 or more, or should i try and stick one of my 4x5 135's or try and get an old 90mm or the like?
regards from the curious
You answered (1), about attainable image quality yourself. It depends on the lens. I've used a number of first-rate lenses on my Century, including 38/4.5 Biogon, 65/8 Acugon, 80/6.3 WF Ektar, 100/6.3 Neupolar (macro only, front mounted on Copal 1), 101/4.5 Ektar, 160/5.6 Pro Raptar, and 210/9 Konica Hexanon GRII (front mounted on Copal 1). Got first rate image quality from all of them. The lousy images were my fault, not theirs.

The only movement I use on mine is front rise. It is useful when available. I used to have a 65/8 Raptar that made infinity from inside the box. This limited rise considerably until I removed the wire frame finder from the front standard. Shift is a problem, at least for me, with Graphics because a little unintended swing comes with it.

I can't address how you should best use your budget. I've been very lucky as a shopper, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to assemble my kit. These days ok lenses can be fairly inexpensive.

The 105 Xenar covers 6x9, so does the Xenotar if that's what you have in mind.

The 2x3 Pacemaker Speed is thicker and heavier than the Century but allows the use of lenses in barrel. Good lenses in barrel can sometimes be very inexpensive. But the Speed limits the use of short lenses. The shortest standard issue lens that will work in a 2x3 Speed is the 80 WF Ektar. The 65/8 Acugon and Super Angulon will too, but nothing much shorter.

Cheers,

Dan
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2148
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-11-25 01:04, troublemaker wrote:
P.S. if i can get a Century with a working range-finder, are they good enough to leave the viewing hood and ground glass behind. the one on the Crowns i have a little experience with do not appear to be calibrated, and thus can not judge the potential accuracy. If they are good, i could possibly go for some sailboat stuff where constant focussing is a necessity. some big negatives, if sharp, would be impressive. i have been kicking around ideas of how to adapt newer filters to these old lenses, polorizer, or 1.5 Sky etc becuase they have newer coatings. I have noticed lot of glare on these older lenses.
anyway, have a good day
A calibrated RF does just fine, but remember that the Kalart can be calibrated for only one lens. If you're going to change lenses, you'll need to focus on the GG.
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alecj



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 853
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my 2¢ worth: When I bought my Century in 1968 it came with a 101mm Graflar 4.5 lens. Although I later added an 80mm Planar, stopped down 2 stops or so that Graflar was JUST AS SHARP. I would highly recommend that lens. If you can find it in a Prontor SVS shutter, even better. I owned that lens for most of 30 years. I NEVER had to have that shutter cleaned - it never slowed down - even the self timer. Perhaps an unusual experience, but it's what I observed. Note, it was a Graflar, not a Graftar. Close, not not the same.

I'd try and get the focus panel. You'll need the ground glass to check/change the rangefinder. With your normal [101] lens, and the wire frame finder, you can set, and then lock the focus, so you'll not have to contend with that. Try for a 6x7 back because of the easy enlargement ratio to 8x10.
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 105mm f3.7 was the hottest, most expensive lens Graflex put on a 2x3 camera. At its peak a 23 Pace Crown with this lens was more expensive than a 4x5 Crown Special.

Before you go and buy a pile of backs, ask the lab that you would normally use if they print FULL FRAME 6x9. For years the answer was no, not enough demand to pay for the neg carrier. But now that labs have gone digitial it's possible to get a good print from 6x9.

If not, try looking around for the older Mamiya RB67 backs. Not the ProS as you'll be paying for an interlock that you can't use. I've found these backs to be much more reliable and flat comared to the knob winds or the lever wind Graflex holders.

The Kalart RF is a lot like Charles Emerson Winchester III, it does one lens, it does it very well and then it goes on to the next shot.

While it doesn't sound like you're the type, my museum background forces me to add that if you're going to strip the camera to save a few grams of weight for backpacking, the look a little harder and find one that never had a rangefinder in the first place. They aren't that hard to find as the RF was an added option.
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troublemaker



Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 715
Location: So Cal

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never fear, I am drawn to these Graphics because of my interest in history, and currently study at CSULB in that dept. My neigbor loned me an old Crown and that sent me packing for info about them. i decided to get one just to have it. so i have it, but am most interested in medium format because i can print these myself.
Bellows question: Is there soemthing to use to treat bellows if they look good but dry and stiff, or is it better to leave them alone?
all this lens info is very helpful, thanks to all. the camera shop on the way to school has a Century, so maybe i will own one by the end of the day. if i remember correctly, it had the 103 triopter, which isn't rated very well. forgive me, i am only one month over my head into this. but it sounds like even with this cheaper lens i should get ok results.
as far as my Ektar 105, it is in a no.2 supermatic, but am i to understand that this is not a 4x5 and was intended for the 6x9?
it is in good working order, but will need a lens board. it just looks a bit big. i am also going to search out a parts camera, if i need to cannibalize... i think this would be about the same as buying a lens board anyway. however, does anyone carry lens boards readily available?
I will post later about the Century that is local. I got an enlarger from them and they acept returns, as opposed to ebay.
Have a good day,
steve
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2148
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-11-25 11:18, troublemaker wrote:
Never fear, I am drawn to these Graphics because of my interest in history, and currently study at CSULB in that dept. My neigbor loned me an old Crown and that sent me packing for info about them. i decided to get one just to have it. so i have it, but am most interested in medium format because i can print these myself.
Bellows question: Is there soemthing to use to treat bellows if they look good but dry and stiff, or is it better to leave them alone?
all this lens info is very helpful, thanks to all. the camera shop on the way to school has a Century, so maybe i will own one by the end of the day. if i remember correctly, it had the 103 triopter, which isn't rated very well. forgive me, i am only one month over my head into this. but it sounds like even with this cheaper lens i should get ok results.
as far as my Ektar 105, it is in a no.2 supermatic, but am i to understand that this is not a 4x5 and was intended for the 6x9?
it is in good working order, but will need a lens board. it just looks a bit big. i am also going to search out a parts camera, if i need to cannibalize... i think this would be about the same as buying a lens board anyway. however, does anyone carry lens boards readily available?
I will post later about the Century that is local. I got an enlarger from them and they acept returns, as opposed to ebay.
Have a good day,
steve
Yes, the 105/3.7 Ektar is for 2x3. It won't cover 4x5 or even 3x4.

About boards, do a web search for Goodwin Photographic (I think), $15/board the last time I bought, or Midwest Photo Exchange, $19/board.

Good luck, have fun,

Dan
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troublemaker



Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 715
Location: So Cal

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the lead on lens boards; i'll check them later. i brought the Century home. it is in much better shape than my Crown. however,it does not have an RF. on the up, it came with some accessories which included a "23" roll back, and the lens is clean. i cleaned the ground glass, and lens, inside and out and am anxious to run some film through it this weekend. Aside from the focussing axle being a little loose, as compared to the Crown, and a littel curling on the edges of the leather covering, this unit is better than good. Graflok, hood, rails, front lock etc, all seem excellent. But like my Crown, the bellows look dried out and life may be short, but tight for now.
The lens is a Triopter,and it looks like it will have troubles. It doesn't appear to cover the 6x9 as well as the Ektar 105 covers 4x5, which is interesting. I put the 105 Ektar on the Crown, and it looks like it covers clear and sharp,better than the Wollensak 90, at least on the freznal focussing glass. This camera looks like it was used a little, or well taken care of then put away and forgotten about. It has that put down in the cellar smell my Rollei came with. Aside from not having an RF, I think I scored. I tried to date it, but can't find the code. The back of the lens does have a long list of numbers stamped on it.
Yes, I think there is fun instore in the neaar future...
Steve
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davebias



Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Posts: 43
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an easy list of lenses for your 2x3. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this list will suffice about 90% of the time.

* wide-angle: 65mm or 80mm wide-field
* normal: 101, 103 or 105mm - also 75mm is normal if you're taking 6x6 images but most don't cover any more than that
* telephoto: 180mm - 210mm, just make sure they have tele- in the name.

* The quick list of older solid performers: Ektar, Optar, Raptar, Xenar (and Angulon, of course)

* Shutters of choice - anything Copal, Synchro-Compur

I didn't see anyone answer your 4x5 lens question... My experience is that anything between 65mm and 160mm will work, as long as the shutter isn't gigantic. I use my 135mm Optar a lot. So if you have good 4x5 lenses already, simply get some Century lensboards bored to fit their shutters, and a lens wrench so you can switch them back and forth between your two cameras.

-- dave

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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2148
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2003-11-25 21:21, davebias wrote:
Here's an easy list of lenses for your 2x3. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this list will suffice about 90% of the time.

* wide-angle: 65mm or 80mm wide-field
* normal: 101, 103 or 105mm - also 75mm is normal if you're taking 6x6 images but most don't cover any more than that
* telephoto: 180mm - 210mm, just make sure they have tele- in the name.

* The quick list of older solid performers: Ektar, Optar, Raptar, Xenar (and Angulon, of course)

* Shutters of choice - anything Copal, Synchro-Compur

I didn't see anyone answer your 4x5 lens question... My experience is that anything between 65mm and 160mm will work, as long as the shutter isn't gigantic. I use my 135mm Optar a lot. So if you have good 4x5 lenses already, simply get some Century lensboards bored to fit their shutters, and a lens wrench so you can switch them back and forth between your two cameras.

-- dave

Don't forget that 2x3 Graphics will take the 10"/5.6 TeleRaptar/TeleOptar. This lens is available in barrel and in shutter. Taylor Hobson made a 12"/4 telephoto, available only in barrel, that is very usable on 2x3 Speeds. It has a cousin, the 317/4 TelePanchro, that will also do. On the short side, the 35 ApoGrandagon and 47 Super Angulon (f/5.6 and f/8, not sure about the /5.6 XL) will work on Century and 2x3 Crowns. There's no need to restrict yourself to old lenses.
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bertsaunders



Joined: 20 May 2001
Posts: 577
Location: Bakersfield California

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To troublemaker, add 10 years to that bellows of yours, with a liberal dose of Neatsfoot Oil about once every six months, and buff it with a shoebrush! Bert
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Jim23



Joined: 08 Sep 2001
Posts: 129
Location: US/Greater Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Century is amazing....the "Mahoganite" body with its brass thread inserts, etc. (vs wood screws on the 23 Speed/Crown) is an improvement. I wonder why they did not make a 45 from "Mahoganite." The only missing feature is the body release, and a cheap cable release works better anyway (when used with the release holder that mounts by the hand strap). My Pacemaker 45s the body release units are none too precise....
I have a 100mm f3.5 Xenar (from a Linhof) in a very late Compur shutter (MXV w/gray-tipped levers) that I had fitted to my Century. It's razor sharp. I will also agree with the previous post that even the much maligned 3-element Graftar is decent when stopped down to f8 or f11. I have some nice 11x14's to prove it.
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