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[marty_mike]

I'm currently a 35mm user who also has a 6x6 YashicaMat TLR. The 6x6 negatives are nice, but I'd like a wider angle than the 80mm lens. I'm also interested in LF-like cameras.

Would a Century Graphic do anything for me? I'm told not to bother because the movements are too limited to be of much use. What can its limited movements do for me? I'd interested if it could also provide some correction for architecture shots.

I'd go 4x5, but I'd prefer to use my Beseler 23C enlarger. I actually have a 4x5-capable Omega enlarger sitting in my garage, that I picked up for next to nothing at a rummage sale, that is plenty serviceable however I was planning on selling it. If 4x5 is the only way to go, I might consider keeping it.

Thanks,
Mike

[t.r.sanford]

My first (more or less) large-format camera was a "Century," and it was a whole new world. It isn't a view camera, but it does have decent front movements -- certainly enough front rise to handle a lot of architectural problems. It accepts a full complement of Graflex-made 120 rollfilm holders, including 2¼x2¼, 2¼x2¾ and 2¼x3¼, as well as sheetfilm holders and a "Grafmatic" 6-film magazine. Sheetfilm in 2¼x3¼ size is getting a bit scarce, but it's useful and instructive (and fun). The "Century" is an extremely pleasant camera to use.

Obtaining a wider view than your TLR gives you may take some doing, but is by no means impossible. The question is, how much wider? Popular WA lenses included an 80mm. Kodak "Wide Field Ektar" and a 65mm. Wollensak "Wide Angle Raptar." Both are around at reasonable prices. I have a "W.A. Raptar" and it's a decent lens, but will win no championships for sharpness. The 47mm. f:8 "Super Angulon" will fit, but in my experience, you need to drop the bed when using it at infinity, and this can be irksome, though not unduly restrictive

A 4x5 would give you access to a wider range of lenses and sheetfilm types, plus rollfilm adapters if you wanted them. The difference in print quality would be more striking if you went from 2¼x2¼ to 4x5.

[Henry]

I'll echo what t.r. says about the Century. I use it like a view camera, on a tripod with dark cloth and loupe focussing on the ground glass. There is such a range of films available on 120 that you will never lack for choice in that department. I found 2x3 cut film to be a pain, and there's not much available anyway. Occasionally I use the Century hand-held (mine has the Kalart rangefinder), and that's a lot of fun, too.

As to coverage, that depends entirely on the lens. The Optar 101 will give you all the camera can handle. Not so the Graftar 103, which was the base lens on the Century. The 65mm WA, which was especially intended for this camera, vignettes rather soon. Longer focal lengths are not a problem. You can go out to about 8" bellows extension (203mm).

In my opinion, the 6x7 (2-1/4" x 2-3/4") so-called "ideal format" is just that. It's a good compromise between the traditional paper size ratios, and the office paper sizes (8.5 x 11, etc.) which are common in digital work. I have a local lab develop my film and return it sleeved and uncut, then I scan into Photoshop, store images on the MacG4, and print out on the Epson. (In Photoshop Elements you can correct perspectives and thus overcome the movement limitations of the Century.) My Beseler 23CII is honorably mothballed and may never see action again, at least by me.

It's true that 4x5 (20 sq. in.) is a giant step up from 2x2 (4 sq. in.), but to me the step up from 35mm (1.5 sq. in.) to 2x3 (6 sq. in.) is even more dramatic!



[ This Message was edited by: Henry on 2004-06-08 17:16 ]

[marty_mike]

If roll-film backs are available for the 4x5 Speed Graphics, is there any reason to prefer a 2x3 model such as the Century? I would imagine that the 4x5s weigh more, but anything else?

--Mike

[Henry]

Roll film holders are available for 4x5. They generally cost more than the 2x3 ones. If you are not going to use the 4x5 with sheet film, there's no reason that I can see to choose it over the Century.

Others will surely weigh in on this one!

[ This Message was edited by: Henry on 2004-06-09 05:15 ]

[Nick]

If you want wide lenses then a bigger camera with a rollback is often a bad choice. A wide lens on a 4x5 would be something like 90mm [sort of like 26mm on 35mm camera] but a 90mm lens on a 6x7 camera is a normal lens. Okay you say just get a shorter lens but bigger cameras don't always handle short lenses that well.

OTOH if you want long lenses then it can be a good choice. That 4x5 camera will handle longer lenses easier then a smaller camera might.

It all depends on what you want.

BTW you don't use a massive amount of movements for landscapes. When you need them you need them but I doubt you'll be tieing the camera into a pretzel.

[Rangemaster]

I currently use my 47 and one of my 65's with not a lot of problems on my 4 X 5 cameras, like Nick said, it depends on what you want to do, on landscapes from what I have experiance in Glacier and Yellowstone almost no movement is needed on the camera itself.

Dave

[Dave]

Personal experience: for about 20 years, I've had a Century. I now use it mostly with a 105mm Schneider Symmar as the normal lens. I only use rollfilm, with an RH10 6 x 7 holder.

I use the Century almost always as on the tripod, usually 'view camera style' using the ground glass, like Henry. This is slow going, but it gives a high proportion of decent images. The only movements I use are a little rise or fall and a little front tilt. Graphics aren't view cameras, but this is all I need.

I have Bogen/Manfrotto quick releases on both tripod mounts. Do any of the rest of you guys do this? I find it very convenient-- saves some hassle, and I can go from horizontal to vertical in seconds.

To get back to the original post, if you need wide angle, good wide lenses for Graphics are fairly scarce and expensive, (which is why, being a cheap SOB, I don't have one). An alternate solution would be a Mamiya TLR with a 55mm or 65mm lens. I find I can work at least twice as fast with a TLR as with the Century, but sure, TLRs have their own problems.

[Henry]

Even though the Century is not a view camera, I prefer to think as if it were one, in terms of careful set-up, composition, perspective correction, focus, and the rest. I guess the way I use it, you could more accurately call the Century a small field camera.

I also use the Bogen-Manfrotto quick release on all my cameras (incl. 35s), in conjunction with the B-M Medium Geared Head. This head greatly facilitates and speeds up the work; once you level up by means of the built-in bubble level, adjustments are easy and precise, with no fumbling around for handles, etc. Also, you can easily flop the camera over 90 degrees for verticals, so I only have the one quick-release plate, mounted on the bottom tripod hole.

The 65 Optar can yield excellent results, but it *is* difficult to focus, and it must be stopped down to at least f/16 for decent edge sharpness---f/22 is better. Wish I had a better one, but as Dave says, it's a matter of $$.

[Adrian]

As far as movements, it all comes down to your lens budget. If you can afford a nice lens with really good coverage, then go for a view camera. The movements are a lot of fun.

However, if you are on a budget (really good view camera lenses are really expensive) go for the graphic. It probably has just about exactly the amount of movement that a budget lens can handle, and it's more versatile than a view camera. It's fun to be able to hand hold it when you want to.

There's nothing like setting up a perfect shot on your view camera and discovering when you develop it that half the picture is missing because your lens couldn't cover. I've done it a few times. This was on a camera that couldn't even do extreme movements. It can be pretty hard to judge on the glass. There may be enough image for you to see, yet you find that it is not bright enough for the film to respond to.

[Henry]

Adrian, you make some excellent points. About the only time that limited coverage works in my favor, and usually inadvertently at that, is when the 65mm lens vignettes slightly with front rise, resulting in some really nice darkening of the sky in the upper corners of horizontal shots. This works best, of course, on those sunny, cloudless (and cool!) days that we don't get enough of in s.e. PA. this time of year.

[t.r.sanford]

What's appealing about the "Century" is that using it for awhile can give you a very good idea of the direction you want to go in.

If you find the front movements so useful that you want more of them, and back movements too, and you find yourself almost always working with a tripod, then you can buy a view camera.

If you find yourself using the "Century" handheld, as a press camera, and you'd like a bigger negative, a wider range of film options (like Polaroid and sheet), you can get a "Speed" or a "Crown" 4x5.

If you find the "Century" is a neat little camera that will do everything you want to do, and you prefer to work with rollfilm, then you can just stick with it!

[doughowk]

I've only had a Century Graphic for 3 months but find I use it more than 4X5s; and now I never use my 35mm cameras. Great versatility with both rollfilm back & sheet film holders. Can get Efke 100 2X3 from J&C & Ilford HP5 2X3 from most any good camera stores.
Only problem with 2X3 size sheet film is finding a neg carrier for the enlarger (I've got a Durst L1000).

[ This Message was edited by: doughowk on 2004-06-11 04:35 ]

[Henry]

Don't know if this will work on your Durst, but with my Beseler 23CII I had a carrier for 127 film (square format) that I wasn't using, and I had a local machine shop enlarge the openings to accommodate 2x3 sheet film. If you can go this route, be sure to measure accurately for the new openings with a piece of cut film so you can tell the shop the exact dimensions for the cuts.

It may also be possible to fashion a carrier yourself out of Bristol board or similar stock from an art supply store.

[marty_mike]

Thanks for all the replies. A local store has a Tachihara (sp?) field camera setup including a rollfilm back that I plan on looking at. If I decide it is too pricey, I plan on keeping my eyes peeled for a Century/Crown/Speed Graphic. I'm starting to turn away from Ebay these days as I've gotten a lot of crap described in "excellent condition".

Regarding the negative carrier for a Durst, my universal glass carrier on my 23CII works for everything ranging from 6x9 to 35mm.