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troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

Sorry in advance if this sounds repetitive.
I have an old Cycle Graphic here with what appear to be light tight, but certainly fragile bellows. The camera is in nice working condition. (surprized me when I got it!) I am assuming these are real leather bellows, but just want to check and see if anyone knows and what is recomended before I clean this camera. I am thinking Bert's magic neat's foot oil for this one???
I believe this is a Cycle from the older generation since it says on the name plate:
Folmer &Schwing Division (rather than Department), but it has the Revolving back and not a removable one.
Stephen

glennfromwy · Joined: 29 Nov 2001 Posts: 903 Location: S.W. Wyoming

I think Neatsfoot oil would be your best choice for this particular application. Lexol, although a good preservative, has given me some shockingly disappointing results on really crispy old leather. It seems to make the fibers just come apart, leaving a useless mess. Please don't use it on those bellows. The Lemon Pledge treatment might work but I would be suspicious. Mink oil is another option that should be ok. Several applications may be needed and extend the bellows slowly, a bit more with each coat. If they soften up, leave them extended for a few days and clean off any surplus before closing the camera. Time to stock up on Q-tips. Good luck

Edit: Be very careful about extending the bellows too far when applying the first treatment. They could come apart.

_________________
Glenn

"Where everybody is somebody else's weirdo"

[ This Message was edited by: glennfromwy on 2004-05-06 19:14 ]

troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

Thanks,
I am going to get a soft brush dedicated to neats foot. The thing is a littel moldy. Thought I'd brush it lightly, and then start with a couple gentle treatments. I have mink oil, and considered it, but then I would have to rub, bad, but will use mink on the outside covering. Neats oil soaks in quick, so I thought a couple treatments and then the lemon Pledge for the entire camera and a nice detailed wipe down of the varnished mahogany. Otherwise it is ready to take photos, and Les was right about the standard Pacemaker sheetfilm holders fitting, and my Riteways seem to fit perfect.
regards,
Stephen

[ This Message was edited by: troublemaker on 2004-05-06 21:05 ]

bertsaunders · Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 8:58 am Post subject:

The ole magic elixir Neatsfoot works every time, then brush it with a shoe brush..... Bert

Top · Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 11:18 am Post subject:

I've had very good luck with Pecard (www.pecard.com) on old, dry, fragile leather. They market an antique formula, but the plain jane stuff works for me.
Top

Les · Joined: 09 May 2001 Posts: 2682 Location: Detroit, MI

As someone who has worked in museum conservation I can't recommend any liquid on truly fragile leather. As has said before most of the oils tend to break down the leather further.

the Pledge treatment was for the plastic bellows of Anniversary and later cameras.

A soft brush to get rid of the mold helps. If I had it I would treat it with Thymol crystals to kill the mold but that needs some sort of chamber and a heating element.

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RichS · Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 5:05 pm Post subject:

Well, this brings up a good point then. What could be used on worn, dry, fragile leather?

I hate to admit it, but my first thought is a Tandy Leather product called "NeatLac" (or something close to that). I use it on new leather. It's an oil based 'lacquer' (artificial I believe?) that softens, protects somewhat and reinforces the leather fibers a bit.

My second thought is that stiffening the indiviual leather fibers would make them crack. But with the oil mixture to lubricate them?

A third thought would be for boiled linseed oil. I've used this on metal, wood and leather. It hardens with age, but does remain flexible. And I would have no doubt that it would have been the base for the original leather and cloth bellows coating as it would keep it flexible, semi-water proof and with a black pigment mixed in, light proof.

With a non-flexing substance (wood or leather), reinforcing the fibers works well. But with a bellows, I'm not sure?

Anyone have a product that would seemingly do the improbably of reinforcing and strengthening the fibers while keeping it flexible???

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troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

These bellows are perhaps not as fragile as I led on. I just do not wish to damage them. They appear to be light tight, and are still fairly pliable.
I do not think I want anything linseed oil based. Bolied linseed oil hardens, and we used to use it in paint and varnish for boats. Raw linseed oil is the stuff that does't harden as much.
the bellows were kinked, or rather not folded correctly in the back, but I can fix the folds when I take the GG off to clean it. Then I will check for light leaks with a 40W fish tank bulb again.
I am inclined to think that the pledge may be the way to go, but does wanyone know if it is leather safe? The label suggests that it is, and it may be less likely to to break down the leather and liner glues than soaking with oil, as neats foot soaks in rapidly.
The mold should brush off with a soft 1" brush faily easily. The hard part will be getting at the back pleats without torturing them. The bellows appear to be glued on permanently, unlike the later Pacemakers which remove easily. I will probably make some kind of 90 dgree brush to get at the back and avoid having to rack the bellows out fully. Perhaps I can simply bend over a #3 acid brush?
Thanks much for the suggestions. I will think about it for a while longer before I do anyhting.
Stephen

RichS · Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 2:59 am Post subject:

Ummm, sorry about that. I wasn't actually suggesting to use those products. More "thinking out load" if I were in such a situation.

If they're not damaged and fairly sound, then anything like Pledge (which I've never used on leather, yet) or neatsfoot would take care of them

Now I'm guessing here again, but I would think that the glues used to hold the bellows together were originally water based. Like the hide glue they used on wood. But I have no idea what was actually used on leather bellows. Since oil based products are the standard to preserve and treat leather, I doubt oil would attack the glue. On the other hand, I could be 100% wrong about that and I hope we hear from someone who actually knows!

I mention linseed oil from some dusty memories. I used to be a history buff and involved in colonial American stuff. Back then, fabrics were treated and water proofed with two basic products. Tar and linseed oil. As I vaguely remember, the common thing to do was mix linssed oil with beeswax to produce a paste. It stayed softer and lasted longer than the pure oil which does harden quite a bit. Things like cloaks and backpacks were treated this way, similar to the 'oiled' outback coats we see today. As I also remember now, they seemed to also remain 'sticky' to the touch, so maybe it wouldn't have been used on bellows? I have used linseed on heavy leather were it didn't matter much how flexible it remained...

Sometimes it just doesn't pay to 'think out loud'

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"Ya just can't have too many GVIIs"

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troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

Interesting,
One can still get waxed cotton rain gear like the old western duster, and I wax nostalgic in thinking of the sailor's oil skins. I have worn my share of the PVC coated variety.

Anyway, that was just my $0.02 worth regarding the linseed oil. Thanks for the info on glue.

I checked the bellows with a light bulb in the dark room and there are a couple pin holes in the corners, and where the brass support ring loops are attached, nothing major. I checked one of my Graphics that has produced nice images and found some light in the corners there also. Perhaps I need to mix up a concoction and seal the corners before applying any cleaners.

But Suppose I wished to replace the bellows on the Cycle? I certainly will not have time to make them, though I have heard of this being done on this site...

Maybe we are back to coatings?

regards,
Stephen

[ This Message was edited by: troublemaker on 2004-05-07 20:51 ]

RichS · Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 4:21 am Post subject:

Can get them? I wear one every day! (or at least when I go out) Just bought a new one last year, along with the can of replenishing water-proofer (it does wear oout after a couple of years).

I certainly wouldn't worry about corner pinholes. All my Crowns have them. I patched them with black Liquid Tape (vinyl). The first one failed very fast. I forgot to clean the areas before patching. After that, I cleaned them with 90% alchohol, then patch, and they've held together very well. People use all sorts of things for pinholes and most of them work.

Making a bellows? There's a project! I would love to try, but would never have enough time. Although it is temping for one of my CU's. And there's where the linseed oil struck my mind. A bellows must be fairly rigid to hold it's shape when extended. there's really just a little flexing at the folds. Linseed would give cloth that rigidity, but possibly allow the flexing at the folds. I've had old linseed soaked rags around for years and they don't crack when I bend them. Course I don't bend them every day and I never actually tested for that. But it somehow still strick me as not too bad an idea? But there is that 'sticky' thing that would worry me. I wish I had the time to experiment. Probably all you'd have to do is lay out the cloth and iron it with a little starch

If you decide to buy bellows for it, check Camera bellows. Although I haven't bought one from them yet, I will, and everyone says you won't be disappointed with their work...

Good luck with it!

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"Ya just can't have too many GVIIs"

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Rangemaster · Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 5:38 am Post subject:

Making bellows is actually pretty easy once you get the process figured out, I have made several for everything from 2x3 to 11x14, like I said they really are pretty easy, some thin cardboard, nice tight weave black cloth which is available at the fabric store for about 3.00 per yard, you can get quite a few 4x5 sets out of a yard, and then just about anything you want for the exterior, I have made out of several different kinds of leather, plastic and other materials, I figured it out after I bought a book over at ebay! for about 12.00 bucks that was wrote in 1902 and has all kinds of neat info on making 'modern' cameras it is a reprint book that a guy in CA does and it is a wealth of information for those who are into large format gear..

Dave

troublemaker · Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 715 Location: So Cal

Ok, so the pinhole thing has me check a couple more cameras, and I discovered a couple more with pinholes that have also produced pretty good images, so I wont worry too much. I think I will see about some black vinyl paint (used on inflatable boats, could mix red and black for old bellows) or liquid electrical tape for the corner pinholes, but only dab as needed, as I am from Southern California, and it is important to look good here as it is a materially based culture... But seriously, I do like my things to look swell and not patched. So the real issue will be figuring out how to create a corner pinhole patch goo that is reddish brown for the Cycle bellows as a temporary fix I suppose. It would be neat to make a new set my self, and I am aware a couple of the posters (not imposters) that hang out here have made them. We will have to get back to that this winter. In the meantime, based on a couple bellows that have pinholes, the photos are fine, and I have been purposely hand holding, and keeping the rollbacks and cameras out in light as to check these things.
Stephen

RichS · Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 2:16 pm Post subject:

Okay, so what's the name of the book???

And those corner patches. I won't downgrade "looks" at all, expecially on an old camera. With the vinyl Crown bellows in black, it's easy to patch a pinhole with liquid tape and have it not too visible. Your bellows may need a little more care.

Now what I've done for slightly larger 'pinoles' that I considered too big for a pinpoint of liquid is use "shutter curtain material" from : http://www.micro-tools.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=MT
They have all kinds of camera repair stuff. That shutter material is a very thin cloth with a rubber backing.

I cut something like a half inch strip, length depends on the bellows fold. I open the bellows almost all the way because you need the 'fold'. I then pre-fold the material to match the patch area (on the _inside_ of the bellows!) with the rubber surface facing the bellows, it will hold that shape for a minute after a good press. Once I have the shape & fold correct for the patch area, I coat material (rubber side) with a latex, water based glue. I use "Leather Weld" from Tandy because I do leather work and this is just great glue that stays very flexible. Then I place the patch in position and hold it there for a minute while the glue sets up. After an hour or so, I close the bellows nice & tight and leave it for a day. This guarantees a light-tight patch that will last for years. Doesn't show on the outside, and also strengthens the bellows corner.

After this inside patch, the outside can be taken care of cosmetically because the light-tightness and strength is taken care of on the inside.

So far, this is my best method for serious pinholes. The shutter material is thin enough that many patches can be made along the same row of folds and not increase the thicknes of the bellows too much. The material sheet will be enough for dozens of cameras...

If you need a glue, someone here knows a common latex/rubber based glue that works as well or better than my Tandy stuff. I forget who and what glue

but he's a regular (Charles or Bert maybe?) Sorry...

So, from the sound of things, I think that's how I would handle your bellows. But again, it's your bellows and I can't see it

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"Ya just can't have too many GVIIs"

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Rangemaster · Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 3:05 pm Post subject:

Okay, you drug it out of me, the name of the book is 'Photographic Cameras and Accessories' It is one of the Hasluck's "Work" Handbook Series, it is really a pretty cool book, 160 pages of great information, it is amazing how little has really changed in large format photography in the last 100 years, this book goes into lenses, how to build bodies, bellows and a whole lot more.

Okay now for my fix on black bellows, so they still make the grade on the looks department as well, even in the remote areas of Montana, us country boys have figured out if it looks better then it takes better pictures! Besides you don't want to be standing next to David Meuch of Galen and not look good in Glacier! (I know Galen Died) but had opportunity to meet and shoot with him before he was killed. Anyway..

On black bellows I use a tape that is called gaffers tape, it is a cloth tape that sticks real good, the way I make it look like it belongs there is to also place a piece on both sides of the bellows at the corners as it if it is re-enforcing material and belongs there all the time, it is dense enough to handle pretty big holes with out leaking and really does just look like corner re-enforcing, I figure if one side is worn the other side can't be far behind, especially for those cameras that get back packed and opened and closed alot as some of mine do, I tried the vinyl liquid tape and unless you have a real steady hand, which I don't any longer, I ended up with sticky blobs that eventually peeled off or stuck to the next blob. The tape I use is not Black DUCT tape you find in the hardware store, this is a dull surface tape that we use in studio work for a host of things, whats nice about it, is even if you use on red bellows as long as you do both corners opposite of each other, then it looks like it belongs there.

Anyway good luck and keep your focus on the ground glass sharp.

Dave