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What would be a good next lens for Crown Graphic newby

 
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campy



Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 51
Location: mass.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:48 pm    Post subject: What would be a good next lens for Crown Graphic newby Reply with quote

I have a 135mm lens now and would like some suggestions for a practical next lens that's a little more modern and substantially better quality that won't break the bank.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 4081
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some 4x5 negatives that will produce 8 foot x 10 foot gallery quality prints made with 135m Wollensak Optars. While not all copies off the production line were perfect most are or are close.

If yours is not up to snuff try another one. I have never been impressed with Schneider but some are good. Zeiss is nice as is Rodenstock.

One's gray matter calibration has more to do with image quality IMO.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2119
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which 135 do you have?

Do you want to replace it or do you want a different focal length? If you want a different focal length, do you want a shorter lens or a longer one?
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campy



Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 51
Location: mass.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am looking to add another lens. I have a 135 Optar and a 135 Xenar.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 4081
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am looking to add another lens.

The difference between nominal size and actual image area on a sheet of film has been discussed before and I'm not looking to start another one so here goes with nominal.

1 inch = 25.4 millimeters; 4 inch=101.6mm; 5 inch=127mm. The diagonal is the square root of 101.6²+127²; 10322.56+16129=26451.56 and the square root is 162.63935563079435663680072893539 therefore 162mm is considered NORMAL for 4x5. There are other factors such as format ratio that creates the gray area as to what is the equivalent in other formats. 135 format diagonal is 43mm and 50mm is considered normal for comparison.

135mm is moderate wide in 4x5 format; 90mm is very wide while 210mm to 250mm are moderate long. There are few telephoto lens for 4x5, one was/is the Wollensak Optar/Raptar 15 inch occasionally found on ebay in barrel and shuttered versions. A 12 inch (304.8mm) non telephoto will only focus to about 15 feet on a Speed or Crown Graphic.

Older lens in shutter will usually need a shutter CLA which runs $75 to $150 + shipping depending on who/where you have it done. Being able to do it yourself is a +.

Check https://www.keh.com/ . The common price for more modern glass in Copal shutter is $250-$500.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 2119
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, come on, Charles. You gave 4x5 plates' dimensions. The actual image area on 4x5 sheet film is roughly 95 mm x 120 mm and the generally accepted normal focal length for 4x5 is 150 mm.

There are many tele lenses for 4x5. Schneider Tele-Arton, for example. Very good and modern teles from Nikon and Fuji. Scads of older ones. Even the Graflex XL's 270/6.5 Rotelar.

About 12 inchers, I have a TTH 12"/4 tele as was fitted to AGI F.134 and F.139 and Vinten F.95 aerial cameras. Covers 4x5, has very short back focus. Very short as in focuses to infinity inside a 2x3 Pacemaker Speed Graphic's box.

campy, if you want a modern wide angle lens (= Schneider f/8 Super Angulon clone) that's not too expensive, look for a 90/8 Ilex. These were sold as Acugon and as Calumet Ilex Wide Field Caltar. If you want a modern 210, there are many. Visit classic.keh.com, look at the lenses offered in the large format section.
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DHF845



Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 103
Location: Hudson Valley Area, Upstate NY

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:54 am    Post subject: Next lens for Crown Graphic Reply with quote

campy, what focal length are you looking for? Wide-angle? Long lens/telephoto?
What qualities in a lens are you after?
What sort of look and feel are you trying to create (I.E.: pictorialist, west-coast, f-64, NYC noir, Weegee, surrealist, new objectivity, something not yet 'ist'-ed)?

One of the best things about Graphic (and Series D/Super D Graflex) cameras are interchangeable lens boards. Almost infinite lens possibilities, many superior, yet bargain-priced.
Pre-WWII "normal" lenses were generally designed for more 'pictorial' photos on b+w ortho film; produce pleasantly muted colors; are vaguely soft wide-open. Most of my pre-WWII Graflex and Speed Graphic cameras came equipped with one of three lenses: a B.&L. Tessar, Kodak Anastigmat or Zeiss Tessar. All are excellent designs (but produce images not tac 'sharp' in modern sense).

My 3x4 Anniv. S.G. came with a 135 f/4.5 Skopar in rim-set Compur. I mounted a 165 f/3.5 Ernemann 'Ernon' on my 3x4 Series D Graflex. To my eye these are "sharper" and "more contrasty" then 'typical' Graflex/Speed Graphic lenses (great when that's what you want in your photo).
The 127 and 135 Ektars and 135 Optars I have on my post-WWII cameras are all very sharp lenses. The coated versions render truer colors with less flare. A coated 1950's Xenar is likely as technically sharp as you'll get in an authentic OEM lens on a Graphic/Graflex camera..
I personally think 10 inch and 15 inch Tele-Optars are mediocre, low contrast lenses (the 3 examples I have are). I think the 11 inch f/5.5 Ross Tele and 15 inch f/5.5 Tele-Xenar are much crisper. The Ross Tele in particular renders spectacular colors.

Nothing back in the day renders images like modern lenses. We're accustomed to razor-sharp, high contrast color photos with startlingly brilliant colors (if you like that sort of thing). It's a matter of individual taste and style. If max microscopic sharpness is what you want, a 1980's Nikkor in Seikosha shutter is probably TWTG.

Beauty is in the eye, etc..
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DHF845



Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 103
Location: Hudson Valley Area, Upstate NY

PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS wrote:


One's gray matter calibration has more to do with image quality IMO.


That what it's all about. You don't like Schneider, I do, we both "like Zeiss".
"Sharpness" is relative, subjective, and can be defined in a variety of ways, according to many variables (I.E.: where did I put my glasses).
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IanG



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 74
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

135mm Tessar & Tessar type lenses like the Raptar and the Xenar aren't brilliant performers at wider apertures, they aren't to bad at f16 and at their best at f22 were sharpness is excellent.

That's based on practical experience I used a 1930 135mm CZJ Tessar for a couple of years, and use a more modern 135mm Xenar, but it's also what Zeiss stated about the LF Tessars.

It depends what you want from a lens, LF Tessar & type lenses are cheap and cheerful, use them at f22 if you want best sharpness.

Personally I find the 150mm Tessar & type lenses far better for 5x4 work than the 135mm, which parallels Dan's comments, and use 2 regularly a CJZ T coated f4.5 and a last production run f5.6 Xenar.

Used carefully a Tessar and type lens will produce images equal to more modern lenses like Symmars and Sironars.

My second & third lenses with Crown & Super Graphics are an excellent 90mm f6.8 Angulon, and a British 203mm f7.7 Ektar, both commonly found for £100 ($160) or less and sharp.

Ian
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