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6x12 or 6x17 back + ideal lenses for these backs

 
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filmguerilla



Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 36
Location: Manila / Iran

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: 6x12 or 6x17 back + ideal lenses for these backs Reply with quote

hi,

i've been searching the www for any info i could gather about these backs on a pacemaker speed graphic. there are some alternatives for the expensive backs / china / diy.. but i'm wondering... would a 6x12 or a 6x17 works properly on my pacemaker speed graphic (top RF with graflok)? what should i need to consider? what ideal lenses i could use for a 6x12 or 6x17? i read about some problem having vignettes on a certain focal length. but those are new to me. i'm still unsure of everything about these backs.. i decided to take the plunge on this since buying another panoramic camera would cost me almost the same chinese 6x12 back. i'm considering these backs also because right now where i live has beautiful places that would benefit a panoramic shots. so investing for a back is a good idea.

i've checked the auction site and i saw those dayi backs. some are under $200 some are higher than the normal price. the 6x17 is much expensive and it seems like complicated. i'm not sure how to focus on that back

anyway, my dilemma is.. which lenses i could use with these backs without having a problem with focusing, getting vignettes etc.. which lens combo lens i could use for 6x12 or 6x17. since my camera is speed graphic the widest i could use is 80mm-90mm right? should i use the widest? or a normal lens? i have a few lenses already 300, 210, 180, 150. not sure if these would work with either of the 2 backs.

hope anyone could shed some more info.. been researching for the past few weeks about speed graphics, lenses, accesories etc.

thank you guys!

regards

FG

PS: pardon if i posted this in the wrong forum and my bad english.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3233
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remove the focus panel from your camera back and measure the width of the film opening. Any film holder whose image area is larger will have the edges of the image clipped off due to the fact that the image opening of the camera is smaller.
Some 4x5 cameras have a film opening larger than their stated format size, Graphics do not.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1889
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fg, to help you think about which lenses can be used on a 4x5 Speed, the 4x5 Pacemaker Speed's minimum flange-to-film distance is 66.7 mm. Any lens whose flange-focal-distance is at least 66.7 mm can be used on a 4x5 Speed.

If you look around on this site you'll find a huge table of lenses with their key dimensions that was provided years ago by Michael Gudzinowicz. It says nothing about the latest most best, but given the budget you've mentioned in another thread the latest most best lenses are out of reach.

Nominal 6x12 is in fact 56 x 112 mm, diagonal 125 mm. A lens has to cover at least 125 mm to cover 6x12.

Among older modern lenses, a 65/8 Super Angulon will do just fine on 6x12 and will focus to infinity on a 4x5 Speed. So will a 65/5.6, but the f/5.6 will cost more.
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filmguerilla



Joined: 03 May 2012
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Location: Manila / Iran

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks 45pss and dan! actually i'm not familiar with technicalities on either cameras or lenses when it comes to LF. hehe that's math to me..

i think i would go with 6x12 since what i read and told me there would be problem using a 6x17 on a pacemaker speed graphic..

i don't think i could use a 65mm on pacemaker speed graphic or its not that important becuase i will be using a smaller format? would there be any problem with a 65mm with the bellows and focal plane shutter of a speed graphic?

another thing is i havent use any backs before especially this type of back. how would you focus on a 6x12 back? would be focus in the ground glass first before you install the back?

thank you again guys!




Dan Fromm wrote:
fg, to help you think about which lenses can be used on a 4x5 Speed, the 4x5 Pacemaker Speed's minimum flange-to-film distance is 66.7 mm. Any lens whose flange-focal-distance is at least 66.7 mm can be used on a 4x5 Speed.

If you look around on this site you'll find a huge table of lenses with their key dimensions that was provided years ago by Michael Gudzinowicz. It says nothing about the latest most best, but given the budget you've mentioned in another thread the latest most best lenses are out of reach.

Nominal 6x12 is in fact 56 x 112 mm, diagonal 125 mm. A lens has to cover at least 125 mm to cover 6x12.

Among older modern lenses, a 65/8 Super Angulon will do just fine on 6x12 and will focus to infinity on a 4x5 Speed. So will a 65/5.6, but the f/5.6 will cost more.

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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3233
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Side rangefinder Speed: calibrate the rangefinder to a lens. Make focus scales for that lens and any additional lens you wish to use. Install the Roll Film Holder in place of the focus panel and rangefinder focus. Transfer the distance reading from the rf matched lens scale to the scale for the lens in use if different from the rf calibrated.

Top RF Speed: use cam matched to the lens in use and have a cam for each additional lens. With only one cam make focus scales as in the side rf option.

No cams, switch between the ground glass and the roll film holder.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1889
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

filmguerilla wrote:
actually i'm not familiar with technicalities on either cameras or lenses when it comes to LF. hehe that's math to me..


Well, you'd better learn. Graphics help those who help themselves.

Quote:
i don't think i could use a 65mm on pacemaker speed graphic or its not that important becuase i will be using a smaller format? would there be any problem with a 65mm with the bellows and focal plane shutter of a speed graphic?


Short answer, the 65s I mentioned can certainly be used on a 4x5 Pacemaker Speed. They will fit on the camera, focus to infinity, and clear the FPS. I wouldn't have suggested them if they wouldn't work.

Long answer, go to http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ and read the FAQs. And buy a book on view cameras. Steve Simmons' Using the View Camera or Strobel's View Camera Technique would do well for you. If you don't speak the language you won't understand what we tell you.

Quote:
another thing is i havent use any backs before especially this type of back. how would you focus on a 6x12 back? would be focus in the ground glass first before you install the back?


Charles' advice re adjusting a Kalart RF or changing a late Pacemaker's RF cam for the lens is use is correct but mischievous. Recalibrating a Kalart is time-consuming and isn't practical in the field. You asked about lenses, not about the one true lens, so this is a consideration. "Get the right cam for the lens" for a top RF is easily said, not easily done.

I use many many lenses on my 2x3 Graphics, focus on the GG and then attach or insert the film holder. Nothing to it. By the way, you do plan to shoot from tripod, don't you?
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filmguerilla



Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 36
Location: Manila / Iran

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you very much 45pss!

45PSS wrote:
Side rangefinder Speed: calibrate the rangefinder to a lens. Make focus scales for that lens and any additional lens you wish to use. Install the Roll Film Holder in place of the focus panel and rangefinder focus. Transfer the distance reading from the rf matched lens scale to the scale for the lens in use if different from the rf calibrated.

Top RF Speed: use cam matched to the lens in use and have a cam for each additional lens. With only one cam make focus scales as in the side rf option.

No cams, switch between the ground glass and the roll film holder.

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filmguerilla



Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 36
Location: Manila / Iran

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, you'd better learn. Graphics help those who help themselves.


thank you dan,.. i'm trying to learn here


Quote:
Short answer, the 65s I mentioned can certainly be used on a 4x5 Pacemaker Speed. They will fit on the camera, focus to infinity, and clear the FPS. I wouldn't have suggested them if they wouldn't work.


sorry about it. i thought it can't be use based on what i already read here and other sites.

Quote:
Long answer, go to http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ and read the FAQs. And buy a book on view cameras. Steve Simmons' Using the View Camera or Strobel's View Camera Technique would do well for you. If you don't speak the language you won't understand what we tell you.


i had those books in my home town. i'll try to bring it here in my new place when i get back. if i can remember there are not too much technicalities written there than what i've learned in this thread. i'm very thankful.



Quote:
Charles' advice re adjusting a Kalart RF or changing a late Pacemaker's RF cam for the lens is use is correct but mischievous. Recalibrating a Kalart is time-consuming and isn't practical in the field. You asked about lenses, not about the one true lens, so this is a consideration. "Get the right cam for the lens" for a top RF is easily said, not easily done.


i would probably use one lens if i could make the top RF work just for using the 6x12 back for ease of use. i have to read more about adjusting the top RF.. another research for me do i need to buy the "cam" for this or it's all in the camera?

Quote:
I use many many lenses on my 2x3 Graphics, focus on the GG and then attach or insert the film holder. Nothing to it. By the way, you do plan to shoot from tripod, don't you?


yes tripod. i was just thinking a loud because focusing on the speed graphic ground glass then putting the 6x12 back would atleast change focusing or something. if no i'm set to it.

thanks for the help. i just need to decide what lens to get.
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filmguerilla



Joined: 03 May 2012
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Location: Manila / Iran

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like i have enough lens i could use with the back

http://www.flickr.com/photos/easmithv/6585307051/

i have 6" petzval lens it covers 5x7 but only slight movement. so this would work on 4x5 with 6x12 back. i'm fine with 6x12. ive checked some pictures of the 6x17 back its kinda big and heavy + i might have limited budget.

thank you guys!
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filmguerilla



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Location: Manila / Iran

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the guy is using a 101ektar. not familiar with the lens focal length

http://www.flickr.com/photos/easmithv/6585343117/

maybe a 100mm-125mm lens would be a good choice for my setup?

thanks again i can't wait to use speed graphic
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
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Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

filmguerilla wrote:
the guy is using a 101ektar. not familiar with the lens focal length

http://www.flickr.com/photos/easmithv/6585343117/

maybe a 100mm-125mm lens would be a good choice for my setup?



101 mm is approximately 4", is the normal focal length for 2x3 (6x9 is a poor metric approximation to 2.25" x 3.25". We often abbreviate 2.25" x 3.25" to 2x3). A 101 Ektar may illuminate more than 110 mm but a 110 mm circle is the largest it will cover with reasonably good image quality. Critical photographers won't use in on larger than 2x3.

As I've told you, 125 mm is the normal focal length for 6x12. 127/4.7 Ektar, 127/4.7 Tominon (most are ex-Polaroid CU-5), 130/6.3 Zeiss Tessar (taken from several sizes of Folding Pocket Kodak) will all do very well on 6x12. So will the 125 mm Fujinon, a more modern and somewhat better, also more expensive, lens.

If you want a 100, 100/6.3 Widefield Ektar will do, so will 100/6.3 Meyer Aristostigmat. 90s are easier to find, any 90 for 4x5 (inexpensive ones include 90/6.8 Raptar/Optar and Angulon) will do on 6x12. The Raptar/Optar was one of the lenses that Graflex recommended for 4x5 Speeds.
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filmguerilla



Joined: 03 May 2012
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Location: Manila / Iran

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dan, thank you very much!!!

you guys are such a help!

now, i'm looking for a good lens. hope budget permits. maybe i'll get an old design and a new one that i could use in the future if i manage to go back to 5x7. i can't wait to work with a graflex.. the FPS is the reason i choose it. i will try to explore barrel lenses as well. 6x12 would be great here in iran.

thanks again guys!

Dan Fromm wrote:
filmguerilla wrote:
the guy is using a 101ektar. not familiar with the lens focal length

http://www.flickr.com/photos/easmithv/6585343117/

maybe a 100mm-125mm lens would be a good choice for my setup?



101 mm is approximately 4", is the normal focal length for 2x3 (6x9 is a poor metric approximation to 2.25" x 3.25". We often abbreviate 2.25" x 3.25" to 2x3). A 101 Ektar may illuminate more than 110 mm but a 110 mm circle is the largest it will cover with reasonably good image quality. Critical photographers won't use in on larger than 2x3.

As I've told you, 125 mm is the normal focal length for 6x12. 127/4.7 Ektar, 127/4.7 Tominon (most are ex-Polaroid CU-5), 130/6.3 Zeiss Tessar (taken from several sizes of Folding Pocket Kodak) will all do very well on 6x12. So will the 125 mm Fujinon, a more modern and somewhat better, also more expensive, lens.

If you want a 100, 100/6.3 Widefield Ektar will do, so will 100/6.3 Meyer Aristostigmat. 90s are easier to find, any 90 for 4x5 (inexpensive ones include 90/6.8 Raptar/Optar and Angulon) will do on 6x12. The Raptar/Optar was one of the lenses that Graflex recommended for 4x5 Speeds.

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