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Carl Zeiss, Protarlinse Vll f 35cm lens

 
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peter k



Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Sedona Az

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject: Carl Zeiss, Protarlinse Vll f 35cm lens Reply with quote

Whats so special about this lens?
Will it fit any speed graphic or just 4x5's

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-29cm-35cm-Protarlinse-VII-479808-461573-/280832946315?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item4162f2b08b

Edit..
The reason I ask is, and didn't make clear, I have one in hand, and didn't believe it would fit my 3.25 x 4.25 because its on a larger lens board, and must have been originally used on a 4x5.
I was shocked when doing some research on it to find this gentleman, who has a good reputation, but high prices selling one.
So what's so special about it?
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1892
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter, Kin Leung, who sells on eBay as Kevin Li (gokevincameras), sells to the collectors' market. High prices, infrequent sales. The only way to find out how much real people will pay for yours is to offer it *******.

Zeiss Protars were, perhaps still are, prized because of their good coverage and resistance to flare.

Your lens is a double Protar composed of two "Protar lenses" (Zeiss parlance). With both cells in place, its focal length is is around 180 mm. Each of the two cells can be used without the other. One has a focal length of 290 mm, the other 350 mm. To learn more about double Protars, go here http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/zeiss_4.html and read pages 32-4.

No Graphic has enough extension to focus a 29 cm non-telephoto lens, let alone a 35 cm. Protars are not telephotos. But the two cells together make a 180/7 lens that you should be usable on any Speed Graphic, including 2x3.
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peter k



Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Sedona Az

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My gott... my head is reeling.. instantaneous photography... what we take for granted today.. and Photogrammetry...

As I understand it, this lens basically is a faster, wide angle, and a closer shooting lens then the Graflex Optar f 4.7 135mm lens I have now.
Correct?

But then I know so little of lenses, having been spoiled doing most of my shooting through classic 35mm Nikons. Ya don't have to think about it, change the lens from macro to tele and take a look. The speed makes the CMC Nikons, look and act like point and shoot.

Well having looked into the telephoto's, the pricing is out of my budget, so were 180, and into close ups ... we can handle that.
I took the Graflex Optar f 4.7 out of the 3x4 speed, and it does look like this lens will just fit, it sure fills that space, will have to modify the existing lens board to fit the 3x4 speed but it should work.

Another Question...
The lens is marked from 5.4 to 36.
Are these the F stops, as I am familiar with them?
... or a equivalent in metric.. if metric, how can I convert?
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Combined the two lenses make for a nice 180 f 7 lens that covers 5x7 with a 12.5" dia. circle at small stops slip over filter dia 57mm. (zeiss catalog 1933)

I've seen this lens on Graflex SLRs from time to time.
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peter k



Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Sedona Az

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les ..I'm lost.. this is all new territory for me.. and I would like to learn.
Quote:
180 f 7 lens that covers 5x7 with a 12.5" dia. circle

I understand now that this is really a 180 f7 lens.. but it covers 5x7 with a 12.5 dia? Could you please take the time to explain, or direct me to a link.
The camera I'm going to put it on is a 3.25 x 4.25 Anniversary speed.
Quote:
at small stops

Meaning that the numbers are small stops, as in F stops. But more precise and adjustable?
So are the numbers as in 5.4, 6.3, 9, 12.5, 18, 25, 36 referenced directly, linearly, to our normal f stops of 4.7, 5.6, 8, 11, 16 ?
If so.. then a piece of cake.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1892
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter k wrote:
As I understand it, this lens basically is a faster, wide angle, and a closer shooting lens then the Graflex Optar f 4.7 135mm lens I have now.
Correct?


No no no. The normal focal length for 3.25" x 4.25" is 135 mm. Some say 127 mm. 180 mm is longer than normal, sees a narrower angle, not a wider, than a normal lens

Quote:
But then I know so little of lenses, having been spoiled doing most of my shooting through classic 35mm Nikons. Ya don't have to think about it, change the lens from macro to tele and take a look. The speed makes the CMC Nikons, look and act like point and shoot.


In 1970 when I was shopping for my first real camera, one of my friends and advisors was a Leicanut who was having trouble weaning himself from thread-mount to M- Leicas. He told me that people like me who wanted SLRs with on-board light meters would never learn the basics. I thought he was wrong but you just proved him right.

Buy a copy of Graphic-Graflex Photography. The book lays out the basics fairly well. I have the first and tenth editions; IMO the first is better for learning about photography than the tenth, the tenth is better for learning about Graflex' products than the first. Or buy a copy of A. A. Blaker's book Field Photography. It is, to my taste, the best introduction to photography ever written. My personal judgments, others may well disagree.

Quote:
Another Question...
The lens is marked from 5.4 to 36.
Are these the F stops, as I am familiar with them?
... or a equivalent in metric.. if metric, how can I convert?


These are f/stops. Buy this book http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=5809476139&searchurl=isbn%3D2912848148 , it has the table of f/stops you need.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3258
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it has the table of f/stops you need.

so does Google: aperture scale: first entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-number
scroll to near the bottom of the page.
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of large format vs 35mm like that of IBM PCs vs Apple back in the 80s. PCs were "open architecture" meaning just about anything from anybody would fit, some worked better than others. Apple was "proprietary". If you bought a Mac, you pretty much were stuck with (great) software from Apple and Apple alone...If you bought a Nikon body you were pretty much stuck with (great) lenses from Nikon.

With large format, if you can screw, tape, or glue a lens on a board with a hole it in, you can use it on large format, some lenses perform better than others.

All lenses project a circular image, yes even Nikkors. Depending on the design of the lens, that circle can be big enough to 'cover' 8x10 or small enough to barely cover 16mm. Most lenses are designed not to be fiddled with--you put then on a board and use it. Other lenses are convertible, meaning you can use the front or back half of the lens by itself for a different focal length. It allows you to have three lenses in the space of one! This Protar is one of those lenses. One half is a 290mm lens (11 1/2") The other half is 350mm (roughly 14") Combined they make a 180mm (a 7" lens) The circle this lens projects on the ground glass is 12.5" dia. , so it can cover the 5x7 format easily. In fact, you can shift, rise, and drop the 5x7 rectangle quite a bit off center and still not have the image get cut off. (imagine drawing a 12.5" circle on your wall, cutting out a 5x7 piece of paper and moving it around within the circle).

I think this lens was INTENDED for a 5x7 view camera as most 5x7 views could handle all three focal lengths. But that doesn't mean you can't use it on a 3x4 Anny. It just might look a bit large up front and you MIGHT not be able to close the camera.

In your case the other focal lengths can't be used, and a 180mm lens is fairly long for 3x4, probably a nice portrait lens for bust or slightly closer portrait lenses, and a Protar is a nice portrait lens.

Aperture scales. With three different lenses there should be three different aperture scales. But there's only one. Which means the scale reads in millimeters not f-stops. I think this shutter and lens was part of a set that had at least one maybe two other "cells" or lenses, probably a 25cm and possibly a 15cm. With 3 or 4 cells you now have a dizzying number of total focal lengths and there is just no way to have 7 or 8 f stop scales on one shutter, so the scale runs from 4.5mm to 36mm and you'll have to make up a chart by dividing the focal length by the f stops you like (180/f8=22.5mm) f16=11.25mm, etc. I think that answers just about all your question. If you have any more send me a private message with your phone number and we can talk. And getting a copy of Graphic Graflex Photography is a good idea. They are selling pretty cheap right now.
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1892
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les, the lens the OP pointed us to in his first post does indeed have a diaphragm scaled in mm. Zeiss did this for a while. I thought they stopped doing this before 1914, could be mistaken. The lens on eBay's s/n means 1922, is very consistent with a dial set Compur.

But Ridhcard told us that his lens' aperture scale runs from 5.4, 6.3, 9, 12.5, 18, 25, 36. This is a perfectly normal aperture scale, with one stop steps starting at 6.3.

Since Richard is a little confused by large formattery -- it is confusing, especially to people who come to it from Apple cameras -- he may not have told us everything that's engraved on the shutter his lens is in.

I suspect that Richard's shutter is a replacement. The evidence is that the two cells combined are f/7 and the single cells' maximum apertures are f/12.5. Richard, one of the more confusing parts of large formattery is that a lens' cells can often be moved from one shutter to another without the original aperture scale(s) following them.
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
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Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do stand corrected on the aperture scale bit. The mm scale has one mark to the left of 5, which might look like 5.4 or 4.5 depending how good the bifocals were working that day. I have a casket set from the mid to late twenties; 3 cells, 6 focal lengths... a millimeter scale on a barrel, and a homemade conversion table glued on the lensboard.

If indeed, his scale is marked like he said, then my corrected answer is, "Yes this scale fits it neatly with the one you know and love, it's just shifted 1/3 of a stop down. from 5.6, 1/3 of a stop is 6.3.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3258
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The red flag I noticed is that the serial numbers do not match. A factory set should have the same serial number for all groups. I think this is two different front groups, or two separate lens attached to the same shutter.
http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/zeiss_1.html
gives the 29cm as covering a 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 plate with a 15 inch image circle; the 35cm as covering 8x10 with a 18 inch image circle. (page 10)
The lens diagrams, page 7, show the single Protar f12.5 as being a single group, 4 elements on one side of the aperture. The f18, 2 group, same elements as the f12.5 but with the aperture in the center. Protars do not have these focal lengths listed.
The convertible set C consists of a 35cm, a 29cm, and a 22cm group.
The 1929 catalog has the same info. http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/zeiss_2.html

And, yes, the first commercial space travel tickets are expensive.
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peter k



Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 167
Location: Sedona Az

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan:
Quote:
180 mm is longer than normal, sees a narrower angle,

da.. yes that's obvious, but where I got mislead was your reference to page 32..
Quote:
go here http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/zeiss_4.html and read pages 32-4.

It states near the bottom:
Quote:
...from single objects to wide angle street scenes..

and which is explained on pages 36-37.

The photographer can take the two lenses and get three images from the same location. Both on, outside one off, and inner lens taken off and place on the front.
INCREDIBLE! Thus the image changes from a narrow angle to a wider angle, and even wider angle, as the lens is changed and adjusted.

Les yes I do think
Quote:
... this scale fits it neatly with the one you know and love,

for someone has scratched in numbers of the usual suspects of 8, 11 and vertical lines for 5.6, 16 among others.

45pss ...
Quote:
The red flag I noticed is that the serial numbers do not match.

Where did you get that from... from the e-bay item?
I didn't post any serial numbers? But here they are..
Compur Lens.. # 258646
# 493451 what is now the outer lens
# 461454 inner lens
Although I did not take them off, the lenses are snug, but easy to take off and you can tell by the edges that they have been.

The shutter between the two lenses.. serial # 917957

I tried to take some flash pictures but the reflection off the metal didn't photo well for the close ups, maybe tomorrow in the sun.
What a lens.. large format is definitely not "proprietary" I've learned allot tonight.. thank you all, and yes.. it was quite

Quote:
confusing, especially to people who come to it from Apple cameras
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3258
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I got the serial numbers from the additional pictures linked to in the listing description.
This is a Double Protar that is not a combination listed in the catalogs I linked and the 1907 catalog has a close but not exact combination. Had this been a factory combination, catalog listed or not, both the front and rear lens would have the same serial number.

The page numbers 32-4 was a typo, should be 32-40. I missed that that the Series VII was in the 1907 catalog.
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to have to differ on two of your statements. This combination is shown in the 1929 catalog, 8th line down, in the double-protar table. on pate 19 It's listed as14-11 1/2. It's also listed in the 1933 catalog, on page 25, again 8th line down.

In all of my research on ebay and talking with other old timer photographers I have never ever seen or heard of a double protar with identical serial numbers on the same cells. To me this doesn't make business sense. Zeiss looked at each cell as an individual lens. Why would they duplicate numbers? Most of the double protars that I've seen that I believe to be factory matched usually have serial numbers within one or two, up to 5 digits apart. I think it would be rather difficult for me to go to Lens and Repo, ebay, the internet and assemble a double protar on my own and finding two cells serial numbers within a 1000 units of each other, let alone within 10.

If anybody has a double protar with identical numbers, or even Zeiss documentation showing this practice I'd love to see it.
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peter k



Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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Location: Sedona Az

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to thank all of you for your patience with a newbie.
I couldn't stand it anymore, the theory and conceptual understanding of this lens and its discussion, all in the mind. I made a quick cardboard template this morning, and attached the lens.

Ohhh...my...
it all rang together like quicksilver..

Using the 35mm nikon lenses, macro, 28mm, 50, 80-200 I understood the the nomenclature to the lens, and what it would do. But somehow, just a concept.
Like those going through here in Sedona. Their arm out of the window, with phone, or digital, taking a picture at 45mph.

I now have a slight understanding, feeling as I did, entering 1st grade, with my metal pencil box with handle the very first day.

Les, have it now, 5x7 with a 12.5" dia. circle
Yesterday I ordered Graphic-Graflex Photography.
Yes, I'm getting it, with the hands on. "...large format, if you can screw, tape, or glue a lens on a board with a hole it in, you can use it"
And, yes, I can close the camera.
Next, modify the lens board, and verify shutter, which seems to be fine, and the 'f' stops.
THANKS again all..
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