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Bellows -> mold, mildew and/or fungus treatment?
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, it's not dust... I just noticed that the inside of my latest restoration project may contain mold, or some other nasty white powdery stuff that I'd like to kill...

First thought was a brush & vacuum. Second thought, this is a frabric with a lot of little, tiny fibers that will hold on to spores like a magnet...

So I did some net searching... Several hours later, all I came up with was suggestions to use; tylex(!), a mix of ammonia and peroxide, alcohol, or thymol.

For some odd reason, the Tylex just doesn't sound good to me? But I'l check the ingredients next time I see a bottle..

Ammonia & peroxide? Never heard of this. Will it really kill mold, mildew & fungus?

Alcohol. That's easy. But again, does it kil the little buggers?

Thymol: I remember this from some of the postings by Les. But where to buy the crystals? On the net, it was suggested to use Lysterine as it contains Thymol. And we all know that Lysterine is pretty nasty stuff Maybe it's not a bad idea?

So, after a cleaning, we know there's still some ugly stuff waiting in the fibers to come back again and do damage. What do we think might be the best chance at killing them off? Something that evaporates completely would be nice, and sprayable. Or fumable(a word?) like Thymol crystals, but again, where to obtain?

Thanks for any ideas...
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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alcohol will kill everything if it's strong enough.

Can't you use a dilute bleach?

Or how about Iodine?
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2004-10-27 05:39, Nick wrote:
Alcohol will kill everything if it's strong enough.

Can't you use a dilute bleach?

Or how about Iodine?


Bleach? Inside a black cloth bellows??? Hmmm...

Iodine is something that was never suggested, and it disolves readily in alcohol. I wonder if a minute amount mixed with alcohol and sprayed on the cloth would be a future preventative? Interesting thought. Then again... When it dries, it would again create tiny crystals of iodine. When the bellows are moved, these may dislodge. Iodine and film are not a good combination. That may take some more thought...


[ This Message was edited by: RichS on 2004-10-27 06:15 ]
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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bleach would be very dilute. For kegs I use 2 oz [a cap full] in 5 US gallons. At that level it doesn't kill on contact but it's also fairly safe.

Commerical breweries,diaries etc use iodine because strong bleach can eat metal. The iodine is also dilute but I don't remember how dilute. One of the advantages of iodine is you don't need to rinse afterwards. That would indicate that crystals shouldn't be an issue.

The other method I can think of is heat aka steam. OTOH That might cause other problems.
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TimKean



Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 24
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about a spray can of good old fashioned Lysol? Spray it on liberally, and wipe off with a cloth. Kills mold and mildew on contact. Plus, it smells real nice!!
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I "played" with iodine when I was a kid. It's crytaline by nature, so when it dries, there would have to be tiny cryystals left over. Normally this isn't a problem as small amounts are harmless to people. It's even used by some to disinfect water before drinking (although I never figured that out because it's not water soluable?). But iodine does interact with the silver contents of photo materials and is even used in certain bleaching solutions. That's why I'd worry about it in a bellows...

Now, after a quick visit to the drug store... Tilex is right out fo the picture. Nasty stuff that _has_ to be washed off. I wish I remember where I saw a reference to it...

But Lysol is another thing altogether! I never knew, and it says right on the fron of the can, that it kills bacteria, mold and mildew. Seems safe for just about everything except your eyes. And yes, it does smell good Well, they do say NOT to use on leather, rayon or acrylic. I would venture a guess that those warnings are more for staining than anything else. Although it may melt rayon? But it should be safe for the fabric bellows and the vinyl outside covering. Just have to wonder about what glues may be holding the thing together though?

So, unless some better idea comes up, a spray or two of Lysol seems to be the thing right now...
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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dug out my old bottle of iodine. The stuff must be around 15 years old and still liquid. At the high concentration suggested for washing they claim 50 ppm of iodine. The santizing concentration is 1/2 that.

Film and paper both contain iodine. One of the more controversial claims in Anchell and Troops darkroom cookbook is that modern film includes so much iodine that sodium thiosulfate can't fully fix it. I think they later changed that to stating the capacity of the fixing bath is lower.

http://www.herc.org/library/msds/lysolspray.htm

That's a MSDS for Lysol. It's almost 80% alcohol-)
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, saw it on the label. With all that alcohol I have to wonder wh it needs anything else to do it's job?

Okay, I'm too lazy to look it up, but the iodine in photo emulsions is not pure. I remember sodium iodide in something? It's much more inert when bound to another element. The iodine in your little bottle (if an antiseptic) is pure iodine dissolved in ethyl alcohol. As a pure crystal, iodine has some very interesting properties, some of which could be considered corrosive as it does like to bond with other elements. Silver being one of them.

A quick paste of info:
"it forms compounds with most elements, but is less reactive than the other halogens, which displace it from iodides. Iodine exhibits some metallic-like properties. It dissolves readily in chloroform, carbon tetrachloride, or carbon disulphide to form beautiful purple solutions. It is only slightly soluble in water."

I think the "less reactive than the other halogens" might be why it's used in photography...


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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stuff I have is intended for cleaning/santizing brewing and dairy equipment. I think the only difference between my tiny bottle and the big boys is somebody noticed the market for stuff smaller then 50 gallon drums-).

It's used because it doesn't react with anything. Not the metal in the stainless pipes and tanks. It's doesn't need to be rinsed off. The label on my bottle includes the form the iodine is in. It's longer then this whole post-)

Lysol 80% alcohol. 4% CO2. some of the rest will be fragrance. I wonder if the rest is filler?
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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the label:

Alkyl (50% C14, 40% C12, 10% C16) Dimethyl Benzyl Ammonium Saccharinate.... 0.106%
Ethanol.... 79.646%
INERT INGREDIENTS....20.248%

I undestand about half of the first one
Ethanol we all know and love...
And 20% of what???
Why worry... It's modern science, and science will save us!!!


Hey, wait a minute... Did someone mention "brew" ing,ery... Now yeast is a critter I get along with!

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Nick



Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 494

PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya I got the iodine for my kegs. Problem was I never got comfortable with not rinsing so I didn't see any benefit over dilute bleach.
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disemjg



Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 469
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty much all the powerful mildew killers I know of are things that I would not put on or in a bellows. Dosing it with such solutions may just be a way to ruin it completely. You may not be able to get at the hidden damage to neutralize it.

Here is another option for you, that will not harm the bellows. It may even work. First, clean off the inside of the bellows as best you can, and if the infestation is heavy you may want to spray it lightly with lysol aerosol. Or omit the spray if you want.

Get a small blacklight fixture; blacklight is UV, right? Get one that will fit inside the bellows, and keep it there for as long as you can. Rotate it to expose every side of the bellows to the light. Extend the bellows to about 8" to open the pleats to the light. I would think that with a weeks total exposure anything the light can get at will be done for. Reinspect periodically to see if the mildew comes back.

I just looked at the fixture I have, and it dawned on me that while the entire fixture would not fit into the bellows (some are small enough to fit, but will have weaker lamps) you could remove the tube, pass it through the bellows, and rig temporary leads from the fixture to the pins on the lamp.
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glennfromwy



Joined: 29 Nov 2001
Posts: 903
Location: S.W. Wyoming

PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mildew won't grow without humidity levels high enough to support it. Not being familiar with your climatic conditions, I can't give too much advise. Here,the humidity is very low, so when I acquire something with this problem I just rub it and vacuum it good, give it a good spray with Lysol and it stays good. I am familiar with Houston, however, where moss will grow on you if you stand in one place too long. I don't know how you fix it in that kind of conditions. Maybe 5 cubic yards of silica gel.

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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.photoformulary.com/

type in "Thymol" and you'll find three sizes. take the smallest.

find a board, a porclain socket that can be attached to the board and a metal can that will fit over the socket and 40 watt light bulb.... a 3 pound coffee can works, with the right size fixture, smaller cans work well too. The can will obviously be placed over the light bulb so cut some holes on the side near the bottom and near the open end to allow for ventiation for the bulb. Or some other moderate heat source....hot plate with a chunk of cast iron. Just not thin alumium or a good fry pan that you might want food in later.

Also find a large box---we used a paper drum on saw horses, but a 25" cube or large will work. Place the heater on your garage floor, at about a table spoon of crystals on the can put the bellows on something so the fumes can get all the way around it. It doesn't need to be close to the heat source. then cover the pair with the box. turn it on and wait 8 hours or so.

This will kill the mold, it won't remove it. I'd use a stiff brush like a tooth brush to remove what you can and leave the rest.

It might be a good idea if you left the garage door open a bit while this is going on. There's a whole lot more thymol here than in 5 gallons of listerene.

Okay file this under "more information than I need to know": In the 20s "Listerene kills germs" was a cloaked way of saying "Listerene kills germs that cause pregnancy"
(10 weeks of "History of Advertising" class at RIT and this is the only thing I remember from it)


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RichS



Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 1467
Location: South of Rochester, NY

PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, there's some replies

I thought of the blacklight, especially since I have a whole bank of them for POP printing, My concern there was what it might do to the bellows as I have no idea how long an exposure would take to do the job. UV light is not good for anything, except printing and killing things... I may reserve the UV treatment after I see how things progress?

Humidity here in the Summer can be VERY high. This year was a killer. Over 85% for weeks on end. So bad that many of the doors in the house wouldn't close any more, and they're usually loose! Thank goodness that's over...

Les: Thanks for the info. I'll see about ordering some right away. I've read your other posts about using it and it seems pretty simple. The only question I have is does it do any harm to anything like the vinyl or wood? This is a vinyl covered replacement bellows (although from the 50's) and it's a pain to remove it from the camera...

Luckily, this isn't what I'd concider a bad case of infestation. I actually did think it was just dust for quite a while. But when it came time to clean up, I realized what I was dealing with and don't want it to take over and ruin what is right now a good bellows. Fortunately(?) our Winters are very dry (or at least all the water is frozen and laying on the ground outside) so I won't be able to judge any success until next Summer.

And, wow, never heard that about Listerene! Somehow that makes me a bit uneasy using the stuff... Maybe I won't think about that any more?


A quick addendum:

Being cheap...ummm...frugal

I thought that the $10.00 for 10 grams at photoformulary seemed a bit high, so I found these:

http://www.medichest.com/thymolcrystalsnf100gram.html
http://wardsci.com/product.asp?pn=9471204

Have to buy 100 grams, 10 times the amount at 1.5 times the cost.
Just in case anyone else was looking...


[ This Message was edited by: RichS on 2004-10-27 21:35 ]
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