Graflex.org

davebias · Joined: 20 Oct 2003 Posts: 43 Location: New York City

Hi,

I recently purchased a red bellows Century Graphic for parts - mainly the reb bellows part - but the seller neglected to tell me that the fabric in the inside of the bellows had become separated on two folds inside the front standard. It bags outward enough to probably show up in photos.

After staring at it a while, and firing off an email expressing my disappointment, I had a thought...

I thought that I'd extend the bellows, and with the lens board removed, I could easily get a syringe into the separated part, pump some adhesive in behind the cloth and smooth it out flat.

My questions are these:
First, what sort of adhesive should I use?
Second, will the hole I make with the syringe need to be patched?
Third, does anyone out there have a tried-and-true method to fix this problem?

Thanks!

RichS · Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 6:15 am Post subject:

Les · Joined: 09 May 2001 Posts: 2682 Location: Detroit, MI

http://www.camerabellows.com/

Theses guys seem to know what they are doing. Y'might want to have chat with them.

bertsaunders · Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:32 pm Post subject:

Use plain old Rubber cement, coat both sides like you would contact cement, let it set for a few minutes until it looks dull, then press together! Nice thing about the rubber cement, make a mistake and you can pull it apart, and do it over again, and it is really strong! If you use the syringe above and on center of a stiffner, the hole will not be a problem, best to do the repair on the inside of the bellows however, if you can! Stiffners are usually made of a stiff cardfile type material, and bellows material is usually a man made nylon type material with a rubberized backing to make it light-tight, rather than vinyl! I use the rubber cement to make replacement bellows, and havent had one come apart, some are over 20 years old
Bert

[ This Message was edited by: bertsaunders on 2003-10-28 11:39 ]

Henry · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:39 am Post subject:

With all due respect to Bert's greater experience, I feel I must caution about the use of rubber cement. This stuff is hell on paper goods, as anyone who has mounted photos with it can testify. In time it turns a nasty brown and stains anything it has contacted. It is definitely not archival! I think I would rather go with RichS's ideas on adhesives. But if it were *my* bellows (and I do own a Century with red bellows) I would try an ordinary white glue like Elmer's; this stuff is derived from dairy products (as in milk), is water soluble, and about as inert as you can get. I'm not sure how it would adhere to the vinyl, but it should work well on fabric.

[ This Message was edited by: Henry on 2003-10-28 16:47 ]

45PSS · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:41 am Post subject:

Elmer's contact cement product number E-753 is my favorite camera glue. Latex/neoprene based, stays flexable, 20 minute work time, excess rubbs off when dry. I apply it to one surface and while wet place the other material in place and press.
Charles

_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.

disemjg · Joined: 10 Jan 2002 Posts: 474 Location: Washington, DC

Two adhesives that I use are Pliobond and Elmers carpenters glue, the yellow stuff. Pliobond is the standard contact adhesive used in camera repair for leatherette covering body panels etc; it is very strong and as the name suggests it is pliable. It can soften some synthetics (as I found out when I used it to re-attach the body vulcanite on a Leica III, which turned out OK after scaring me). It would not work well with a syringe, but needs to be brushed on. I have used the yellow Elmers to fix small bellows problems; it is strong but not flexible; keep it out of the folds or the bellows will not fold/expand neatly. It may not have great power on vinyl, but will have some grip judging from the way it insists on sticking to my vinyl covered workbench. The Elmers works well with a syringe. Rubber cement is another good bet; I have used it on larger bellows repairs where I could brush it on. Do not expect it to work with a syringe either. Bottom line is that if the area you need to repair is small, try the syringe with the Elmers from the inside. Have a small spatula ready to press the fabric into the pleats from the inside. DO NOT USE A LOT OF GLUE!! you just want enough to gently spread out and hold the cloth back in place, and it does not take much at all.

davebias · Joined: 20 Oct 2003 Posts: 43 Location: New York City

Thanks everybody for the suggestions. I especially like the suggestion from 45PSS of Elmers contact adhesive. I'm familiar with this stuff.

To clarify - it appears that the stiffeners are still connected to the inside of the vinyl and that the cloth has, in fact, come loose from the first one-and-a-half folds inside the front standard of the bellows on the left side only (as you're looking "down the barrel") and is fine everywhere else. Since the "loose" area is still connected on the other three sides, I feel that simply tacking it back in place will suit my needs.

I am pretty confident that I can inject a small bead of adhesive with a syringe on center of the stiffeners, then press and hold the fabric against the bead.

I've sent a request to camerabellows.com to see if they can help me.

If all else fails, I do have a black bellows that's in fine shape.

thanks again everybody! And if you have further suggestions, keep 'em comin'!

- dave

[ This Message was edited by: davebias on 2003-10-29 16:52 ]

bertsaunders · Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 8:31 pm Post subject:

I dont wish to discount anyones experiences with any product, or create bad feelings with anyone that takes the time to answer questions on this forum, >I learn< from the responces, just as everyone else does. I do not claim to be a expert, or a super infallable craftsman of any sort, and I have never been offended when someone dissagrees with any of my suggestions...I try to offer my solutions, based on my 20 plus years of re-storing and repairing Graflex and Graphic cameras! Getting a bit old and forgetfull, so please, it's your good judgement that should make the final decision on which solution fits your needs!
That being said...in my opinion...........
Elmers wood glue is a bad choice for a flexable bellows, it has a tendency to dry out and when flexed, it cracks like a thin layer of cement!
I suggested "rubber cement" because it will hold the material in place, and remain flexable for 20 plus years....without any of the above mentioned harmfull effects! It is easy to apply, easy to remove, and a inexpensive alternative! Pliobond is an excellent adhesive also, but I have limited experience with it! I found a >very expensive< Elmers glue, think it was called "Glue All" in a small tube that works on leather/card stock/and cloth, and remains flexable and very strong! Another product I have used is called "Mothers Glue" it is used for attaching beads/glitter to clothing, havent used it for any length of time to test it's endurance though! I still recommend the Rubber Glue, as the best choice! Bert

RichS · Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 9:33 pm Post subject:

Bert,

We all greatly appreciate your answers, suggestions, comments and experience! And I've never 'heard' you say anything that would create bad feelings.

And as far as the rubber glue. Some people have complained or worried about the sulfur content of it. It has a reputation of causing problems by creating sulphuric acid in certain applications. To some degree this has been shown to be true. I've never seen it myself? For those who worry but would still like the wonderful properties of rubber cement, well they've been making sulphur-free rubber cement for years now. They even have it in my local drug store. Just read the can. The 'new' rubber cement should be just fine for any application...

_________________
----------------------------------------
"Ya just can't have too many GVIIs"

----------------------------------------

disemjg · Joined: 10 Jan 2002 Posts: 474 Location: Washington, DC

Bert is correct regarding the unsuitability of Elmers wood glue; I thought I made it clear that I had used it only on small areas, and I pointed out that it was not flexible. The bottom line is that a flexibe adhesive is needed, and rubber cement is the most popular. I have used it for larger repairs and it worked perfectly. I have not tried using a syringe with rubber cement or the other flexible cements discussed; how would you clean the syringe afterwards? I have the good glass and stainless syringes Fargo sells, and would not want to lose one of them to dried cement. The only practical option is probably to use a disposable syringe and toss it.

RichS · Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:36 am Post subject:

I doubt you could get rubber cement through a syringe, with any sized needle. Possible if thinned to a point where it would no longer work well as an adhesive?
That's why I suggested the water based acrylic/latex adhesives. They would go through a syringe and could easily be thinned a small amount if needed. But they take longer to set up and actually stick.
I don't know of any perfect solution. The best would probably be to desassemble the bellows and re-glue. But that's a heck of a job.
Hopefully, we'll find out what worked!

_________________
----------------------------------------
"Ya just can't have too many GVIIs"

----------------------------------------

Les · Joined: 09 May 2001 Posts: 2682 Location: Detroit, MI

I'm not a conservator, didn't even play one on TV, but I did do a stint at the Edison Institute in their Conservation Center.

If your concerned about the acidity levels of rubber cement you might want to pose your question to this company.

http://talasonline.com/

davebias · Joined: 20 Oct 2003 Posts: 43 Location: New York City

Wow, this discussion has become really particular, what with notes on sulfur content and an internal debate on wood glue vs. rubber cement... You guys are awesome!

So a friend of mine who also owns a Century came by yesterday and took a look at my bellows problem. It's his opinion that the separation is so minor and so close to the front standard that it won't show in the photographs... Which eased my mind greatly.

However, I am going to fix it despite his advice. I've obtained a disposable syringe. And I've been waiting for all info to come in about the type of adhesive before making a choice, but I have a portrait to do this weekend, so the time has come...

It seems the bulk of you are recommending some sort of rubber cement as long as it is sulfur-free. However I feel like I'll have trouble getting this into and through a syringe.

I've decided to go with simple Elmers Glue-All. The white stuff that peels off your fingers like skin. I have a feeling that this is far from a *permanent* solution, but will at least fix me up for working this weekend, is completely non-toxic, and won't do any damage to either the card or the cloth that I'll be using it on. I'm doing it tonight so that if it comes loose in a day or two, I can switch to my other bellows for the gig.

Eventually, I'm probably going to get a brand new, custom-color, hand built bellows from camerabellows.com (they quoted me $175-ish). Now that might be like putting $1200 wheel rims on a 1978 Chevette, but will ultimately give me the most beautiful, suped-up Century Graphic ever seen, and that's great by me.

So thanks to everyone once again. This posting has been a big help to me. And stay tuned because I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

disemjg · Joined: 10 Jan 2002 Posts: 474 Location: Washington, DC

Try to use the syringe with the RUBBER CEMENT. Test the syringe with the glue first to get a feel for how easily it flows. If you have a hobby syringe it should work as the tips are larger although dull (sharpen them). A medical syringe may not flow readily if the bore is as small as I think it will be. Remember you want to apply the right amount of cement, but will be unable to see what you are doing. Too much cement can be a problem. Use a spatula to tuck the pleats into position.