Graflex.org Forum Index Graflex.org
Get help with your Graflex questions here
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Curtain dimensions for Press 5x7
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Graflex.org Forum Index -> Reflex Help
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JodyS



Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 4
Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:33 am    Post subject: Curtain dimensions for Press 5x7 Reply with quote

I've spent some time now searching this forum for the dimensions, all I'm getting is references to a pdf with instructions that people have been emailing.

The story: I bought this sad-looking camera at a show last fall, mostly for the lens it came with (Cooke). But I started looking it over this week-end, there's nothing really wrong with it except the curtains, and it looks pretty easy to make an adapter for modern holders. It came with the roll-film back.

The bad news: when I opened the back, the shutter curtain wasn't just broken, it was missing. Someone ripped it out of the camera, many years ago. All I have is the long piece attached to the top roller, and the 1st metal bar. I was able to get the specs for the slits (not the one for 'B') from Butkus: 1-1/2"; 3/4"; 3/8"; 1/8". I understand that ultimately the length of the cloth panels will be determined by the thickness of the fabric; since I have some of the original on-hand, I should be able to duplicate it.

I use a silk fabric: rubber coated with a rubber cement mixed with black paint. I have worked on Kershaw, T-P, Goerz, and Busch press cameras before, and of course I have a working 4x5 Anniversary that I have cleaned and lubed and it now works great. I understand the lengths may actually match my Anniversary, but I've read here that they might not, also. I suppose I could open both side-by-side and measure the diameter of the rollers and thickness of the fabric, and count the number of turns in the mechanism for each letter setting, but I thought it might be easier to request the pdf here first. No sense trying to re-invent the wheel.

I will post a reply here with photos, hopefully I get it right the first time. Any other suggestions are welcome, of course, except for the notion of sending it to someone else to repair
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JodyS



Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 4
Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:40 am    Post subject: The photos: Reply with quote

Not sure if it's bad form here to post the images in-line, if so the mods will please feel free to delete this and I will replace with links.







Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JodyS



Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 4
Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:18 am    Post subject: More details on camera: Reply with quote

In case anyone is interested, the serial number is: 14326 (inside the camera, on the frame under the hinged top door).

Top speed is 1/1500
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3232
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
all I'm getting is references to a pdf with instructions that people have been emailing.
that's cause i don't got a site that i can upload the pdf to so it can be linked to.

A member who no longer works on cameras due to age and health provided some information on servicing a Graflex SLR. I refined those instructions and created a PDF which tells how to disassemble, service, reassemble and adjust the existing curtain. I will send you a copy if you will post your email here or in a Private Message.

-----
I have made 3 or 4 new curtains but had the original to work from. I have never had my hands on a 5x7 (yet). Some of the Graflex SLR's I've worked on have two full turns of the wind key from end of curtain to closed after open, that's about 12 to 14 inches of curtain + the 8 inches or so prior to the O opening. The O opening is significantly longer than the film gate opening. The O and aperture openings top stay are at the bottom edge to 1/4 inch below the bottom edge of the lower guide roller when the curtain closed and drop another 1/4 to 3/8 inch when the mirror is reset/recocked. The lower O and aperture stay is at above the top edge of the top guide roller to the center of the top curtain (wind) roller when the curtain is wound to operate at that aperture. All Graflex Corp. Focal Plane Shutters use the curtain layout shown in
http://graflex.org/RBGraflex/ and http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/graflex_8.html

See this thread about shutter curtains if you haven't seen it yet:
http://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=5624&highlight=shutter+curtain

edit: see my post below.

Search engine player piano for companies selling repair parts and look for a bellows cloth that is .008 to .010 thick. the last I bought was $45 a yard and then one I just found is .009 thick for $86 per yard and no statement of color.

Graflex Corp. cameras were laid out with an engineers rule therefore all measurements are in inch, tenths of and inch, hundredths of an inch, or thousands of an inch.

I took measurements on some of the curtains I replaced but don't have them on this computer so I can send them with the pdf.
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.


Last edited by 45PSS on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:59 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JodyS



Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 4
Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I pm'd you my email addy. I did find that other thread when I tried to rebuild the shutter on my Marion/Kershaw Soho. I looked into the seller in Japan, but upon searching more I read that he was using Habotai silk fabric, so I ordered a few yards of that from a US seller who would ship to Canada using First Class. It wasn't expensive, I bought 2 yrds each of 2 weights of fabric. I also found a gallon of an old rubber coating that was still good, I can dilute that to the thickness I want and coat the silk to a pretty uniform thickness, after some practice.

I never got the Soho working, not because there was anything wrong with my curtain, but because it was a 'variable slit' design, and I wasn't able to get my ribbons on either side to slide well on the wire loops that are used to adjust the slit. However, it was never a popular camera, and I've never heard of anyone else getting one to work either. I much preferred the Thornton-Pickard, which had a self-capping shutter and a dial-set speed under the camera, not to mention the whole mechanism would come out in one piece if you removed the back + 4 screws.

Back to the Graflex: I read up a little more after posting this, and after looking at some pics as well I don't think my rollers are the same diameter as later models, and I read that these curtains just might have been hand-made with each camera without any standard lengths that I could copy. So even if someone sent me their curtain lengths, that probably wouldn't work with my camera.

Someone was making the shutter curtain out of one whole piece and installing in the camera without slits, then marking that curtain as needed by working the mechanism of the camera with the back off. That seems doable, I can easily estimate the length of curtain for all the slits, and I don't have to fasten the bottom roller if I don't want to go to too much trouble. Also, the plastic material to replace the metal slats seems like a good idea, I can drill some micro holes in the edges and sew them in place while marking the locations of the slits (I need to have them in place to gauge the lengths of the panels). I will begin once I have read that pdf, as well as any further responses to this thread, so if anyone else has some experiences to share, I would love to hear them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3232
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aperture stays:
.009 thick copper.
.082 wide.

3x4 RB Auto curtain:
end to 0- 17 7/8 inch
0 aperture- 6 inches
O to 1 1/2 - 7 1/8 inches
1 1/2 to 3/4- 7 inches
3/4 to 3/8- 8 1/8 inches
3/8 to 1/8- 8 7/8 inches
1/8 to end- 9 3/4 inches
curtain total length 67 1/2 inches,
curtain width 4 5/8 inches,
aperture width- 3 15/16 inches,
aperture edges - 11/32 inch.

The curtain for a Series C, a 3x4 body, was 58 inches long.

The curtain makes 1 turn on the roller for attachment and should be bonded along the entire turn. I use Dap Weldwood Nonflammable Contact Cement,
http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?BrandID=48&SubcatID=8 , water base for easy clean up, dried surplus rubs off, curtain removable from rollers for a week or so after assembly if needed. Apply to the curtain and attach to roller while wet.

From your pictures the tension roller is standard diameter but the wind roller appears to be smaller diameter than standard for SLR's.
I would use the existing piece to determine the width and length to the O opening then mark the replacement material with pencil for the remaining apertures. Once you have a rough figure for the total length attach it to both rollers, put it under normal low setting tension and run it through the full operating range 5 to 10 times as the curtain will wind tighter on the rollers giving you a better idea of where the apertures should be. A factory curtain fully removed and reinstalled normally has to be reset after a few wind/release cycles have tightened the curtain on the rollers. The camera should be able to tolerate 3 or 4 extra turns of curtain on the largest roller without the curtain dragging against the body when all the curtain is on that roller with the other end attached to its roller.
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jim C.



Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS, have you tried calling Player Piano ?
I placed an order with them for their pneumatic cloth in Feb 2013
and they were still in business, try calling them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3232
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not currently in need of material.
What was The Player Piano Company is now called Player Piano Parts Inc. and are located in Wichita, Kansas. The Player Piano Company web site no longer exists and Player Piano Parts Inc. does not have an online catalog.
Googling them gets the out of date auction stuff after the previous owners passing in 2009.
Do a Yellow Pages (yp.com) search in Wichita, Ka. for player piano parts gets their contact info. They are at 701 E 2nd. The material is ruberized nylon and is .008 inch thick and flat black.
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jim C.



Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I compared 45PSS's measurements to my complete 5x7 curtain that I took out
of a recently acquired parts camera, a Compact Graflex 5x7 -

End - 0 aperture = 13.812"
0 - 1.5" aperture = 7"
1.5" - .75 aperture = 6.875"
.75 - .375 aperture = 8.5"
.375 - .125 aperture = 9"
.125 - End = 11.5"

Width = 7-7/16 in. ( 7.4375")
Length = 66-5/8 in. ( 66.625" )

Aperture stays are steel on the of the three 5X7's I have.
Width = .131
Thickness = .014
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3232
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are the aperture stay measurements with the stay folded onto the curtain or opened?

My measurements were with the stay removed and opened for reinstallation and paint removed.
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jim C.



Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS wrote:
Are the aperture stay measurements with the stay folded onto the curtain or opened?

My measurements were with the stay removed and opened for reinstallation and paint removed.


The measurements are of the stay still folded on the curtain, it would still be
the same if I had them off the curtain.

Did you have any breakage of the tangs ? On one from my 4x5 I broke one of the
tangs, my guess is that the copper may have work hardened when they were initially
installed. I may not have the same issues with the 5x7 stays since they're steel.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3232
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The measurements are of the stay still folded on the curtain, it would still be
the same if I had them off the curtain.

The thickness will be .007, folded and crimped .014.

Yes I had several of the ends that go back through the curtain (tangs) break off so I glued the flat section to the curtain.
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jim C.



Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're misreading each others measurements,
my width measurement is from the aperture opening to
the edge of the stay, curtain flat, the thickness is taken
off a tang that I bent up far enough to take measurements.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3232
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My measurements were with the stay removed from the curtain and opened for reinstallation so I assumed you were measuring with it still attached to the curtain.

Did you remove the curtain from the rollers to get the end section and total length measurements?
_________________
The best camera ever made is the one that YOU enjoy using and produces the image quality that satifies YOU.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jim C.



Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

45PSS wrote:
My measurements were with the stay removed from the curtain and opened for reinstallation so I assumed you were measuring with it still attached to the curtain.

Did you remove the curtain from the rollers to get the end section and total length measurements?


None of the stays were removed, I wanted it that way as touchstone.
The only thing I did was bend up one tang to get the metals thickness.
My feeling is that the thickness of the stays folded on the curtain aren't much use
when the curtain is incomplete ( fragment with no stays ) , or missing as in my case
and the OP's.

Yes, the curtain was removed from the rollers for the end measurements.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Graflex.org Forum Index -> Reflex Help All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group