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recommend lens for close up portraiture
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1banjo



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 478
Location: kansas

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(and at f7.7 they arent particularly fast lenses either). will f3.5 is a FAST lens
in LF !!

{How close can you focus with your 180mm Tele-Arton and 203mm Raptar-Tele? Do they have X-sync? They sound like about the right focal length for me}
will they do have X-sync BUT they don't do 4x5!!!

203mm Kodak Ektar don't have any flash some shutters
or they do have X-sync as best as I can find if they have flash at all
then they have X-sync


the 270mm Rotelar is a telephoto lens and does work on your Crown!!
as the tele don't need as much bellows drow!! the bellows drow is about
the same as a 162mm more or less

OK I Just got out my Crown with a Graflex Tele-opter with NO FLASH
some shutters mite have X but mine don't
Inf. is about 6" from the film plane
Focuset 8' 7.5" FFP

my 270mm Rotelar flash X & M
Inf. 6.5" FFP
Focuset 8' 7.75" FFP
Focuset 4' 10" FFP on a Coleman lantern fill the 4x5 neg.

my Crown has 11" of Bellow Draw FFP

banjo
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1banjo



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 478
Location: kansas

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK same setup {Focuset 4' 10" FFP on a Coleman lantern fill the 4x5 neg}
But Optar 127mm Coleman lantern fill the 4x5 neg. 18" away 6.5" FFP
that only using 2" more movment from INF.

Kodak Ektar 203mm NOT a Telephoto lens
INF. 8" FFP
8' 8.5" FFP
Focuset 26" away 11" FFP on a Coleman lantern fill the 4x5 neg.

Don't have marking for X it is marked M & F but on most Flash Supermatic Shutters you can put the slide 1/2 way to get X I think


banjo
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3233
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether the lens has X sync or not depends on the age of the shutter.
The Optar and Ektar were made for many years and may be in any version of the shutter as the no flash sync, flash bulb only, full sync, electronic sync only were available or overlapped in production.
Non synced shutter-no internal flash sync.
M type flash sync- 20 millisecond delay; flash fired .020 seconds before the shutter fully opens.
F type flash sync- 5 millisecond delay; flash fired .005 seconds before the shutter fully opens. Electronic flash will be 1/3 to 1/2 stop low if used on this setting.
X sync- electronic flash sync; flash fires when the shutter is full open.
Full sync- M, F, & X available and selectable.
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MonkeyBrain



Joined: 05 Nov 2011
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks both of you.

yes of course...I need to get used to the idea that in LF lens and shutter are not the same thing.



1banjo wrote:
(and at f7.7 they arent particularly fast lenses either). will f3.5 is a FAST lens
in LF !!


yes, 3.5 would be great. but the 203mm lenses I mentioned are 7.7.

What lens are you talking about that is 3.5?



1banjo wrote:

{How close can you focus with your 180mm Tele-Arton and 203mm Raptar-Tele? Do they have X-sync? They sound like about the right focal length for me}
will they do have X-sync BUT they don't do 4x5!!!


ah, ok, that's the end of that then...



1banjo wrote:


the 270mm Rotelar is a telephoto lens and does work on your Crown!!
as the tele don't need as much bellows drow!! the bellows drow is about
the same as a 162mm more or less



umm, well cool, but I dont need a 270mm lens.


1banjo wrote:
Kodak Ektar 203mm NOT a Telephoto lens


Good, I dont want a telephoto, I want roughly the equivalent of a 50mm lens in 35mm format.

I'm thinking that I need either a 180 or 200 mm lens, and so would appreciate recommendations of a good make/model I might pick up for under $200...but as I said before, an X-sync shutter and the ability to focus as close as possible are the main deciding factors (if indeed this depends on the lens at all... I still haven't understood what, if anything, I can do to the bellows to change this).

Then you lost me again...

1banjo wrote:

Inf.


infinity?


1banjo wrote:

Focuset


?

1banjo wrote:

FFP


?


Sorry, you really have to explain this stuff to me like a complete beginner: I've got almost 20 years experience as a professional photographer but have never paid much attention to cameras themselves, they're just a tool to me and I've never needed to understand how they work beyond getting them to do what I need them to do. The problem is that now I need to do some things slightly different to before...so its new territory for me...thanks for all your help anyway.

EDIT: it just occurred to me that I should probably mention the fact that I make NO use of any movements whatsoever. The only reason I switched to 4x5 is to get a bigger neg, but I effectively use the camera like a point and shoot. I don't know if this factor means that I will have a greater number of potential lens options open to me?
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1banjo



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 478
Location: kansas

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just so you know I shot & Teach 2 1/4 x3 1/4 or (6x9)
Century Graphic or others most of the time and they
have faster lens some F2.8 most F3.5 and minty F4.7


}}What lens are you talking about that is 3.5? {{
most for 4x5 will f4.7 is what is the normal for a 135mm
F4.7 to F6.8 is what you will see on lens less then $1000.

}}180mm Tele-Arton and 203mm Raptar-Tele{{
Yes they are 6x9

}}well cool, but I dont need a 270mm lens. {{
but the Graflex Tele-opter would be a ok lens if you get it with X

}}equivalent of a 50mm lens in 35mm format. {{
is a 162mm not all that minty of them
Schneider 150mm F5.6 or 210mm f6.1

}}infinity? yes ....inf}}

}} Focuset {{ my bobo Focus set at [[Focuset 8' 7.75" FFP ]]

Focus set at 8' =7.5" bellows out from the film plane to the lens



Banjo
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MonkeyBrain



Joined: 05 Nov 2011
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

still hoping someone might be able to educate me a little on the subject of bellows with regards to focusing, as I really need to find a way to be able to focus on a subject just a meter away from the camera in order to be able to make the Crown work for me.

also, its just occurred to me that, given I always need to be able to focus using the rangefinder (its fast, and thats how i like to work), any change of lens will also require a change of cam. and from what I gather these are extremely difficult to track down (and the flying ball horror-stories on here dont make me relish the thought of fiddling with cams much either).

in the course of shooting its likely I'll need to quickly switch between the wider lens I already own and somethign like a 180 or a 210 (which I dont, yet), so I'd probably be better off getting my self a second body with a 180 or 210 and appropriate cam already attached and calibrated.

Easier said than done though, especially when considering all the other spec considerations which considerably narrow down the choice of suitable cameras on the market as it is (top RF, graflok back, condition, price, etc.).

damn, this is getting complicated.

but when I do finally get the right crown set-up for me its going to be a real pleasure to shoot with I'm sure...
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1banjo



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 478
Location: kansas

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes the thing that sucks for most of you in to days world is that you can't just godown town anymore to your local camera store & look & play with camera & lens to see what you wont & / or need ! you have to ask or buy
{from Ebad } then get something that not right so then you have to sale it
and try some else untill you get what you like!
Welcome to my World as I always had drive up to 12 HR's to get to a GOOD
Camera store !!! I have always gotten my film by mail from NYC to get any film even for 35mm!
so thank goodness for websits like this one so we can ask for help from others
so go ahead and ask what you need you know . so you don't have to do what I have done for over 30 years AND that is to buy & buy & buy more
just to find that I still don't have that just right one setup
AND NOW most schools don't teach B&W processing its all DIGESHIT!!!!

now the thing for you is to find the right lens DON'T worrey about a cam
for now as the cam needs to be made for that lens and almost no body sales the lens & cam togather you end up buying a lens then a cam hoping that they are close AND some times you get lucky and they are close! Cams can be made to use with most any lens. there are not any cams that will work with the newer lens as Gradlex hasn't made cams after maybe 1969!!!
AS Graflex mostly made 6 standered lens & cam combos
like 90mm, 127mm, 135mm, tele-250mm, tele-270mm & tele-360mm
and most of the cams that come up on ebad are 90mm , & 135mm
but they would make up any cam you need back then!
you can get cams made still today I make up my own if I need something
that I don't have. it not that hard just takes time to get them right.
its easer for me to make up a cams for the Super Speed / Super Graphic
but thats just me!!

banjo
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3233
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
still hoping someone might be able to educate me a little on the subject of bellows with regards to focusing, as I really need to find a way to be able to focus on a subject just a meter away from the camera in order to be able to make the Crown work for me.

From a post on www.photo.net and in a Wikipedia lens (Optics) that this site WILL NOT correctly link to :
1/s1+1/s2=1/f
s1-distance from lens center to subject
s2-distance from lens center to film plane
f-lens focal length.



Quote:
also, its just occurred to me that, given I always need to be able to focus using the rangefinder (its fast, and thats how i like to work), any change of lens will also require a change of cam. and from what I gather these are extremely difficult to track down (and the flying ball horror-stories on here dont make me relish the thought of fiddling with cams much either).


Make focusing scales for both the cammed lens and the one without a cam. Focus with the rangefinder then transfer the distance to the other focus scale.
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MonkeyBrain



Joined: 05 Nov 2011
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1banjo wrote:
there are not any cams that will work with the newer lens as Gradlex hasn't made cams after maybe 1969!!!


This is a very important piece of information! thanks. My first reaction was "okay, no problem, so I just make sure I get an older lens".

But...

1banjo wrote:
Graflex mostly made 6 standered lens & cam combos
like 90mm, 127mm, 135mm, tele-250mm, tele-270mm & tele-360mm
and most of the cams that come up on ebad are 90mm , & 135mm


...so if they never really made cams for a 180 or 210 (unless someone had one especially made to order) then it doesnt really make much difference what age the lens I buy is, as either way it sounds unlikely it will come with the correct cam.

damn.

1banjo wrote:

you can get cams made still today I make up my own if I need something
that I don't have. it not that hard just takes time to get them right.
its easer for me to make up a cams for the Super Speed / Super Graphic
but thats just me!!


I dont know what the making of a cam involves, but I'm pretty sure its not something I want to get into (or somethign I'm likely to be very good at...), so having one made to order is probably my only option. I might check with the guys who CLA'd my Crown here if its somethign they can do, but I'd be surprised if they can be bothered with the hassle to be honest. Most technicians I've spoken to here just want to do routine jobs with no surprises, anything new for them and they're worried they'll end up wasting too much time and the job will become unprofitable. Which I can understand...


45PSS wrote:

1/s1+1/s2=1/f
s1-distance from lens center to subject
s2-distance from lens center to film plane
f-lens focal length.[/b]


Thanks for that info. Though I don't really know what I should (or can) do with it...is there some way to change the length of my bellows in order to be able to focus closer?

45PSS wrote:


Make focusing scales for both the cammed lens and the one without a cam. Focus with the rangefinder then transfer the distance to the other focus scale.


that seems like a good suggestion, and for most people shooting LF I guess it would probably be a satisfactory solution, but unfortunately it's not practical for me: I shoot people, candidly, while they are moving, and so even a short delay between focusing and pressing the shutter means the focus of the image will be off. And the subject would likely already be out of sight by the time I've got a focus reading and switched back and forth between the 2 cameras. Also putting the camera down and reading off a distance between each shot would render rather pointless all the effort I've made to get my crown set-up for fast hand-held work (shutter triggered from graflite grip, RF, grafmatic backs etc.).

thanks for trying to help again anyway (and Banjo, thanks for the PMed instructions, much appreciated).

Looks like getting a cam custom made will be my only option.
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1banjo



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 478
Location: kansas

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://graflex.org/technical-information.html

Making More Rangefinder Cams

Making Super Graphic Rangefinder Cams
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3233
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
there are not any cams that will work with the newer lens as Gradlex hasn't made cams after maybe 1969!!!

Cams were made based on measured lens focal length not age.
Pacemaker cam list:
http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/top-rangefinder-cams.html

1/f=1/s1+1/s2 where f is lens focal length, s1 is lens center to subject distance, s2 is lens center to film plane distance.
Convert all known measurements to the same units then solve for the unknown.
Example: f=165 mm, s1=1000 mm, solve for s2.
s2=1/f-1/s1
s2=1/165-1/1000
s2=0.0060606060606060606060606060606061-.001
s2=0.0050606060606060606060606060606061
s2=197.60479041916167664670658682635 mm
(hint: on a PC open windows calculator, select scientific under the view tab, use 1/x and inverse check box 1/x to convert back)
So with a 165 mm lens centered 197.6 mm from the film plane a subject 1 metre away will be in focus. When the lens is extended to 220 mm from the film plane an additional 1/3 stop of exposure must be added to get a correct exposure or metered exposure will be 1/3 stop under exposed. See:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/bellows-factor.html
for bellows extension exposure compensation.


Search engine: lens formula for other lens formulas. Simple lens formulas can be applied to large format standard lens, they do not work for telephoto lens.
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MonkeyBrain



Joined: 05 Nov 2011
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks again, both of you.

I checked the cam-building instructions (actually it seems I'd read them before at some point early on in my graflex research) and it doesnt seem quite as difficult as I'd imagined...but still, as I dont even have the most basic equipment it'd probably end up costing me more money to do it myself than it would just to pay someone else.

and the flying balls scenario still scares me.

45PSS, those calculations all make sense, but I dont understand what I'm supposed to do with them (though I'm reassured that you suggest I might find a 165mm lens that will allow me to focus one meter away). What in practice am I supposed to do with this formula? Are you saying that focal length and distance to film are the only factors that determine how close a lens can focus, and therefore I should be able to calculate the closest possible focusing distance just by knowing the extension of my bellows and the focal distance of the lens I have in mind to buy?

If I'm taking rather a long time to understand this rather simple concept its probably because my experience of MF and 35mm lenses is so different: closest focusing distance just seems to be soemthign randomly decided upon by manufacturers rather than dictated by scientific calculations (I'm sure thats not actually the case, but the fact that one 28mm lens can focus very close while another cannot would suggest that there are other variables at play where MF and 35mm are concerned).

The list of pacemaker cams is very encouraging anyway, thanks. Though obviously the fact that cams for nearly every conceivable focal length were manufactured at some point in time is absolutely no guarantee I'll actually be able to track down the cam I need now, 50 or 60 years later.

Won't stop me looking though...

Anyway, if anyone reading is using either a 180 or 210mm lens (preferably a fast one) on a crown, and they could tell me how close it focuses, then they could save me some headache calculations and I can begin hunting (I never did much like math...).

Thanks


edit - when does a lens become telephoto? is it just about focal length, or does soemthign else meke a lens telephoto? Ive never understood this properly, as most ppl just seem to use the world to mean "long focal length". Is that it? if so, at what length does a lens become telephoto?
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1banjo



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
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Location: kansas

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK a telephoto is NOT in anyway the same as a nontelephoto
the OPTICS are different
A tessar don't magnify much
but a telephoto do magnify making the lens shorter
making the Flange Focal Distance
making a Tele-Arton 240mm {{for my 23}} Flange Focal Distance of 158mm
a Symmar 5.6/240mm Flange Focal Distance of 236mm
making the Flange Focal Distance 78mm shorter



http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/index.htm
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If I'm taking rather a long time to understand this rather simple concept its probably because my experience of MF and 35mm lenses is so different: closest focusing distance just seems to be soemthign randomly decided upon by manufacturers rather than dictated by scientific calculations (I'm sure thats not actually the case, but the fact that one 28mm lens can focus very close while another cannot would suggest that there are other variables at play where MF and 35mm are concerned).


The formula put forth is for a single element lens such as a magnifying glass. Large format lens preform very close to the same measurements as a single element so the single element formula is used for convince and simplicity.

35mm and medium format lens have the calculations made by the designer, the formulas involved are far more complex. In 35mm a single element or group of elements are moved internally in the lens barrel simulating bellows movement in large format.

I am not as versed as I would like to be but I am not willing to spend $110+ per book and teach myself lens design.

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Last edited by 45PSS on Mon May 14, 2012 2:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
45PSS, those calculations all make sense, but I dont understand what I'm supposed to do with them (though I'm reassured that you suggest I might find a 165mm lens that will allow me to focus one meter away). What in practice am I supposed to do with this formula? Are you saying that focal length and distance to film are the only factors that determine how close a lens can focus, and therefore I should be able to calculate the closest possible focusing distance just by knowing the extension of my bellows and the focal distance of the lens I have in mind to buy?


You use it to find out if a given lens will preform in your required condition. Distance from the film plane and subject distance from the center of the lens are the only factors. Any LF lens can focus on an object .1mm in front of the lens if the lens is far enough from the film plane.
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