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Graflex Series B 3x4 (shutter dial does not disengage)

 
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spacegoose



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 11
Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:06 am    Post subject: Graflex Series B 3x4 (shutter dial does not disengage) Reply with quote

I bought a Series B Graflex 3.25x4.25 on ebay for $99.00 this afternoon - it has a Carl Zeiss Jena 15cm f/4.5 lens and what I thought was a 3x4 film holder - it is actually a plate holder! (also came with a film pack adapter). The viewing hood is getting a little brittle.

There is an issue with the focal place shutter.

The mirror lever and shutter release engage and disengage but the shutter which is locked more or less at 1 & 1/2 setting does not turn beyond this - (is this the last setting?). The curtain, at least at this setting appears to be in nice condition.

The elbow lever moves very freely, where I notice on other cameras there is some spring tension.

I am wondering what I might do to further diagnose the issue?

This is not an I / T lever issue (have tried moving this around).

I did try a little Nye oil on the circular post nib near the elbow lever, to no avail.

The focal plane shutter tensioner dial seems to work fine, I can wind and release these settings from 1-6.

I can turn the shutter dial around 1/4 or 1/2 turn, but it does not go any further (maybe it's at the last position), and the elbow lever does not disengage the shutter (it has no spring tension) - when I do try to turn the shutter dial, while holding the elbow lever, I do notice the elbow lever moves slightly when I turn the shutter dial to as far as it goes.

I tried to have a look by removing the 4 screws and the 1 elbow lever screw, but I'm not sure how to remove the mirror engaging lever assembly, so I put it all back.

I was not able to look under the plate to see what's going on.

I would appreciate any guidance.


Thanks,
Bill
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bertsaunders



Joined: 20 May 2001
Posts: 577
Location: Bakersfield California

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:30 am    Post subject: locked shutter Reply with quote

Email me @
bsaunbders1@bak.rr.com
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3209
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See http://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=6118

Operate the M lever with the shutter released. Did the curtain run down? If so the problem is in the I/T lever position or the wind plate. I have seen some cameras that 1/16 inch movement off I made the camera operate on T. Visually verify that when released the M lever is moved by the H lever.

NO:
Remove the camera back by removing the 4 screws on the sides (2 each).
These will be Oval head screws or similar. Remove the 8 flat head screws on the back by rotating the back frame to access them.
Some screws may be shorter than others so pay attention to where they came from. On some cameras the rear two wind plate screws hold the wind plate against the back frame so loosen the rear two wind plate screws 1/2 to 1 turn.

The back should slip off but you may have to wiggle it a little.

With the back removed slip your fingers under the shutter curtain at the center of the camera opening. Gently pull the curtain from the lower roller putting equal pressure on each side of the curtain. It should pull out with spring tension increasing and roll back up as the pull pressure is reduced.

Next release the shutter and try to unroll the curtain off the top roller. Turning the wind key opposite the wind arrow may help the roller to turn and reduce the tension on the curtain. If it will not turn try to determine what is causing the jam. Gentle persuasion works better than brute force.

The curtain in the link above had broken on one side at the O aperture and reverse wound itself onto both rollers as someone tried to operate it.
Refer to the site version of the Graflex SLR operation manual linked at the heading of this section or this copy
http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/graflex_8.html
for operating instructions.
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spacegoose



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 11
Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:00 pm    Post subject: shutter doesn't work Reply with quote

Thanks for the info - the back had 4 additional screws - on the side edges over the body rear (all 12 screws same size) - I tried the instructions - unfortunately, although interesting to see what's inside, and the shutter curtain looks pretty decent, it did not resolve my issue, it seems the A key just doesn't turn and engage in the way it should. The M lever never seems to get any spring action (except very slightly and not really springy - more like direct pressure, when the A key is as far as it can go in its attempt to engage the next setting) - is the next step removing the top roller (examine, springs, etc. how)? The bottom roller seems to take up fine -

there is a tiny bit of horizontal play in the top roller though it doesn't appear to affect anything.

It appears the top roller in its default broken position is at the end of it's cloth, so I assume the 1 & 1/2 setting is the first (all the way disengaged)? It does't appear there is any more cloth in this position to disengage. However I am unable to turn the A key to the next position.

I tried the spring tensioner dial, it was difficult to feel if it had any affect on how fast the cloth was taken up or how much tension was on the cloth 6 vs. 1. Perhaps it's just not noticeable when the cloth is passing over fingers?


Thanks,
Bill
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3209
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the back had 4 additional screws

You missed a line in my previous post.

The end of the curtain is a solid piece that covers the film opening blocking the light path from the lens. Next is the O opening-solid piece then the 1 1/2 aperture. All of this takes only 3 to 4 turns on the top roller.

To remove the wind plate turn the camera upside down on a solid surface.
Place a block of wood between the mirror shaft and the work surface. Bert says to use hardwood with a notch cut for the pin, I use 1x2 Pine without a notch. Softer woods will not support the shaft. It must fit securely and not allow any downward movement of the mirror shaft. Using a 1/16 pin punch or an ice pick and a hammer drive the taper pin holding the H lever to the mirror shaft from the shaft. If the Pine starts to compress I switch ends or get another piece.

The pin is sometimes stuck and requires a hefty blow from the hammer to loosen it. Failure to do this correctly will damage the mirror shaft.

Once the pin is removed the H lever slides off the shaft then remove the I/T lever and spring under it. Remove the screws around the perimeter of the wind plate then lift the wind plate off the camera.

Check your PM's.
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spacegoose



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 11
Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Thanks for the info Reply with quote

Will removing the wind plate help further diagnose the issue? I am wondering what the next steps are after removing the plate - what should I look for in there

Is there a conventional way to try first for removing the mirror lever assembly (is that pin a screw) lubricants? - I'm not sure I follow the procedure entirely yet for doing this with a hammer and ice pick and wood brace - I will look at the camera and diagram material to see if it makes sense soon.

The position the shutter cloth is in (and won't really move from) is completely solid (I'm pretty sure) - but it says 1 & 1/2 on the dial. Turning couter clock wise only moves it a little (I believe to where the 1 & 1/2 slit is visible but does not engage there), and then it won't budge.


Thanks again!

Bill
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3209
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wind key should turn counter clockwise until the end of the curtain is reached. The wind key will only turn clockwise when the M lever has been pulled back to the end of its travel.

I suspect the wind key has been forced clockwise causing the gear to jam under the lock lever or the lock lever spring has broken and is blocking the gear train.

With the wind plate removed the only thing keeping the top roller is the curtain except on a few cameras that have a guide clamp that is attached with a screw, easy to see/remove.

Quote:

Is there a conventional way to try first for removing the mirror lever assembly (is that pin a screw) lubricants?

No it is a taper pin that holds the H lever to the mirror shaft. The pin is 3/32 inch diameter on the top and 1/16 inch on the bottom.
Draw a 3/16 line then a 1/16 line 1/2 inch from the first and use the same center point for both lines. Draw a line connecting their outer edges. This is the outline of the pin. The hole in the H lever and shaft are tapered proportionally and are slightly smaller than the pin so that when it is pressed into place the two are locked together and it will not come out until driven out.
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spacegoose



Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 11
Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject: good news / bad news Reply with quote

I was not able to get the pin out of the H lever / mirror shaft - (I tried using a sturdy picture hanging kit nail though the bottom hole w/ a hammer - is that the right side or was I supposed to bang it in and then out from the bit of pin that is already exposed?) - I also tried using a dremmel bit through the bottom hole but it did not budge (and my bits broke and were red hot - of course I had my safety goggles on).

In any event I gave up and dremmeled the H lever off the mirror shaft with a grinding wheel. The top of the shaft shows the valley where the pin was - I can still put the release on the shaft but have no way to secure it (I have essentially sliced off the circle just below the pin).

I am thinking a makeshift knob with release catch could work.

When I got the plate off, I was able to unravel the curtain, and reassemble properly - I had to straighten out the elbow lever as it was not always releasing the curtain, sometimes it would not catch the internal mechanism, or would be behind it, and get stuck in a bad position, as to never release the curtain - straightening helped, and now it consistently releases the shutter.

I got the camera reassembled and it now seems to operate properly (except for no longer having a functional mirror engager and shutter/curtain release mechanism.

Additionally, the tension at 1 can not fully extend the curtain to the last setting, 2 or 3 does, I'll need to adjust it.

My main issue now is figuring out what to do about the shaft / shutter release assembly.

For a $99 investment (on a Graflex B), I don't feel too bad, I'm confident this could still be a user (and I have learned a great deal)!

Thanks everyone for the help so far, and future suggestions.
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45PSS



Joined: 28 Sep 2001
Posts: 3209
Location: Mid Peninsula, Ca.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the instructions called for:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00942881000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM2312894203P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM5781970601P?prdNo=21&blockNo=21&blockType=G21

Get some #0-80 machine screws and nuts
http://www.amazon.com/0-80-Hex-Head-Machine-Screw/dp/B000BREQ4S/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1324526706&sr=8-3

http://www.amazon.com/Brass-Hex-Nut-0-80-Pack/dp/B000FMW7XG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324526753&sr=8-1

and have the pin hole drilled for the screw then attach, or take the lever and camera to a machinist and ask their opinion.
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