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4 x 5 movie film
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1892
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. There've been aerial cameras that shot 4.5x4.5 on 5" roll film since around 1920. Nothing secret about them. And starting not much after 1920, cameras that shot 9x9 and, no later than 1939, 9x18 on 10" roll film. Not much secret about them either. There are still many around.

Some of these cameras were meant to be used handheld and were hand cocked too, but most have film transport and shutter cocking by electric motors. I've had a couple that put two (not a stereo pair) of images slightly smaller than 56 mm x 56 mm across 4x5 roll film. That type has electric drive.
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Fromm wrote:
Hmm. There've been aerial cameras that shot 4.5x4.5 on 5" roll film since around 1920. Nothing secret about them. And starting not much after 1920, cameras that shot 9x9 and, no later than 1939, 9x18 on 10" roll film. Not much secret about them either. There are still many around.

Some of these cameras were meant to be used handheld and were hand cocked too, but most have film transport and shutter cocking by electric motors. I've had a couple that put two (not a stereo pair) of images slightly smaller than 56 mm x 56 mm across 4x5 roll film. That type has electric drive.


The camera in question was likely motor driven and activated by sound
(or some other device) as they were remote control and in a danger area. I have several images of candidate cameras but no captions or ID to look at. A lot of this photography was probably under the RCA Photo Lab operations but I cannot find any history.
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sevo



Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 34
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Fromm wrote:
Hmm. There've been aerial cameras that shot 4.5x4.5 on 5" roll film since around 1920.


I'd guess that the first of them were already about in WWI - four inch and above roll film was a regular consumer size back then, and somebody is almost bound to have combined roll film and aerial camera and maybe even a motor drive.

But I am unaware of any, ever, which could shoot at movie rates of 24 frames per second and above - and the original poster claims to have footage from one.

Sevo
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the two frames the missile has risen about 4 feet vertically.
I do not know the fps for the image in question.

If anyone would like to see the image you can reach me at my e-mail

art7020@sbcglobal.net (In my profile also.....)

I will happy to e-mail the scan for review and feedback.

Art
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Dan Fromm



Joined: 14 May 2001
Posts: 1892
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sevo, you made a good point.

But NASA used phototheodolites for missile tracking. The first make that comes to mind is Askania, but there were others. As it happens, Jim Galli, who's active on the LF forum, is familiar with some of them. I'll ask him to join this discussion and tell us about film sizes and framing rates.

Cheers,

Dan
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glennfromwy



Joined: 29 Nov 2001
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Location: S.W. Wyoming

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were aerial cameras the were equipped for use with intervalometers. I have some information on some that were used during the WWII era. Too old and outdated? Maybe yes and maybe no. It sounds to me like that's what your photos were made with, though. Those cameras could be set to snap a shot at just about any speed the motor could keep up with. Maybe they used a surplus camera. Maybe the military had a new improved version. No way of knowing but I'm willing to bet that's how they did it.
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
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Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

glennfromwy wrote:
There were aerial cameras the were equipped for use with intervalometers. I have some information on some that were used during the WWII era. Too old and outdated? Maybe yes and maybe no. It sounds to me like that's what your photos were made with, though. Those cameras could be set to snap a shot at just about any speed the motor could keep up with. Maybe they used a surplus camera. Maybe the military had a new improved version. No way of knowing but I'm willing to bet that's how they did it.


Thanks for your input. I have yet to hear or read any description or name for these sequencing cameras so I cannot look them up or ask questions.
I do assume for the ground level still and sequences shots these were old
designs or recently adapted aerial cameras. The 70mm are obvious high
speed with sprockets but the 5 wide film no sprockets are much lesser fps.
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Jim Galli



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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Location: Tonopah, NV

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan asked me to weigh in although I'm pretty late. I can only make an educated guess that the folks at NASA adapted an aerial recon camera that uses 5" rollfilm for these shots. Our Cinetheodolites are 35mm half frame cameras. They run at 5, 10, 20, and 30 frames per second. Part of the half frame is used for data so that only leaves an area about 16X18mm for an image. They are made by Contraves in Switzerland and use Kern optics. We don't currently, nor in my archives do I see any 4X5 images like these NASA images. Pretty sure it's one of the post WWII aerial recon cameras that may have been able to run continuously at perhaps 3 frames per second.
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Jim. I think we are getting closer to the answer............just
need to find an image among my photos that might show the camera
being in use at the Cape.
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did find one reference that noted a K-25 was used for missile photography in one launch. I am now trying to find out more about the K-25......
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Les



Joined: 09 May 2001
Posts: 2682
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the K-25 was a 24v motorized version of the Fairchild K-20. the K-25 was designed and made by Graflex.
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Arthur LeBrun



Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Orange, California

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Les wrote:
the K-25 was a 24v motorized version of the Fairchild K-20. the K-25 was designed and made by Graflex.


Thanks for the information. I am not sure what power source was used
but I would guess a/c. FYI there were 5 4x5 Speed Graphics used for the
same launch; most equipment was motion picture from 16mm to 70mm.

Oh, yes and one 8 x 10 view camera. It might have been a Deardorff if
the photographer was Chuck Rogers.


Last edited by Arthur LeBrun on Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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glennfromwy



Joined: 29 Nov 2001
Posts: 903
Location: S.W. Wyoming

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The possibility of a 4X5 movie camera may exist. Jim Galli posted a partial roll of aerial recon film ******* the other day, last test date ca. 1992. Nothing at all unusual about that, as it's still floating around and not hard to find. What is unusual is that this film is perforated like movie film. Double perfed, at that. That is something I'd never seen in 5" roll film. It started life as a 250 ft. roll.
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